Help with some data 223rem heavies.

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Axis II

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Okay guys I know start low and go up but I've only got 10 shots to work with so looking for some direction. Powders available are Benchmark, H322 and H335 but I'm not apposed to using something else. Maybe Varget? I'm not going to load up a max load right off the rip but something that shoots well for you mid or low range would be helpful.

73gr ELD-M
77gr SMK
75gr A max
77gr TMK
69gr SMK
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data NOT TESTED, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Generic for these bullets, in 223 Remington.
73gr ELD-M
77gr SMK
75gr A max
77gr TMK
69gr SMK
H335-22.0 grs
Benchmark-21.5 grs
H322-21.0 grs.
 
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My best loads for 75 gr Hornady BTHP and Sierra or Nosler 77 gr BTHP are:
#1 for a long time now: 23.0 gr Varget (one of the most accurate loads I have for any caliber and weight)
#2 new to me but liking it: 23.2 gr IMR 8208XBR (many shooters on another board like this 23.2 - 23.4, right on edge of max load depending on manual)
#3 also new for me and showing promise: 23.8 gr CFE223 (this powder is replacing many of my loads formerly using BL-C2, slightly more accurate)

All three of these loads are a little more accurate for me than Federal Gold Medal Match 77 gr SMK factory ammo. Varget likes to be loaded near max pressures for accuracy. I've tried a lot of powders to find an equal alternative to Varget on 77 gr bullets since my M1 Garand loves the stuff, but it is still the reigning champ by a significant margin.
 
Note 1: The data below has been transcribed from its respectively (and respectfully) cited sources, proceed with caution with concern for typographical errors in the original publication or this transcription.

Note 2: Best known practices for safe and responsible load development should be followed. The personal opinions expressed below are exactly such. Personal opinions and un-cited, personal load data are only provided for informational purposes, and should not supersede your better judgement for safe reloading practices. The author and THR assume no liability for the use or misuse of this information.


Note 3: Some of these bullets are pretty particular in form, so generic data for one bullet may not well fit well with others. You'll note below, for example, the max load for the heavier 77 SMK is greater than that for the 75 VLD.

Note 4: The Hornady 73 and 75 ELD's share data, and Sierra suggests the same load data can be used for the 77 SMK and TMK. The COAL for these respective pairings are different, the data for the 73 vs. 75 ELD's provided below. I was not able to locate COAL data for the 77 TMK, such it was not provided. The 77 TMK is notably longer than the 77 SMK due to the lightweight polymer tip, and slightly different profile, such the COAL and seating depth will differ for the two, just as it does for the 73 and 75 ELD's.

Personally, I often don't follow the "start at the starting load and work up" rule. I never start at the max, but I also have been handloading long enough to know where I can get away with bending that overly conservative "better safe than at risk" rule. I know I'll never be satisfied with the performance of a round loaded at its starting load (in this example, approx 300fps slower than max load potential), so I typically only pick powders which should yield the velocity I desire, then judge the powder span and pick a responsible starting point somewhere at the bottom of my velocity tolerance, and work up from there. I consider this method to be LESS BLIND than buying a factory round and shoving it willy nilly into my rifle.

24grn Varget under the 77SMK (OVER BOOK) is a pretty standard load for Service Rifle, I've been shooting it for many years.

The Hornady ELD seems very tolerant of jump. The VLD's traditionally have been touted as a short jump bullet, or a jam, but I've attentively loaded some to jump as much as 50 thou and have been happy. I generally consider the SMK's my workhorse, so I like to load them with a short jump (5-15thou) to gain as much powder space as I can - BUT they'll jump just fine. I haven't fired the TMK enough to be familiar with what it likes, but I've shot well with it jumping 20thou so far. The 75 A-max/ELD is a LONG bullet (as is the 77 TMK). It can't be seated to AR mag length, as the bearing surface will be below the case mouth. I'm not sure what the mag length is in the Axis, but I would single feed it for this test, and let it be out near my lands, 20 thou or less. I'd single feed ALL of them, for this test, for that matter, whether they were over length or not, just to be sure everything stays in order during the round robin.

What I would do, given 11 bullets:

1 Bullet: Strip my bolt and seat progressively deeper to feel for the lands - make that one dummy for future reference - this is your kiss length, and everything should be shorter than this.

5 Bullets: Load up my "safe" mid-range load and shoot a round robin, cleaning and shooting some other foulers between each flight. Note any issues for vertical dispersion - if one bullet cries out for more powder, you have 5 left to take back to the reloading bench and pour on a little more steam to see if you can shrink it down.

Last 5: Back to the bench for more powder if needed, else load them up and play. OR you could load 5 with one powder, 5 with another. I personally think a guy learns more by running more loads with one powder, however.

I COULD BE CONVINCED to do 3 sets of 3 shot groups (+1) instead of 2 sets of 5 shot groups, giving myself more room to play with powder charge. But I much prefer 5 shot groups. In that case, I'd make my ONE dummy at kiss length, load 3 of each at 3 different powder charges. OR, you could compare 2 or 3 different powders...

I personally would shoot these at 200 or 300yrds (assuming your 300yrd groups aren't significantly bigger, in angular dispersion, than your 100's). This will give a little more info regarding bullet stability.

I'd be VERY tempted, if the first 3 or first 5 shot well at 100/300, to take the rest out to 500/600, assuming you 1) have a chrony, 2) know how to calc your dope, and/or 3) have sufficiently large targets to ensure you'll make contact.

Published data provided for reference.

69 SMK___________
COAL: 2.260
Benchmark: 21.5 - 23.5 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.0 - 23.6 Sierra Online
H335: 23.0 - 25.7 Sierra Online
Varget 19.9 - 26.4 Sierra Online

73 ELD-M__________
COAL: 2.250"
Varget: 21.8 - 24.6 Hornady 10th

75 A-max/ELD-M_____
COAL: 2.390"
Varget: 21.8 - 24.6 Hornady 10th

75 VLD_____________
COAL: 2.260"
Varget: 20.5 - 22.7 Berger 1st

77 SMK_____________
COAL: 2.260"
Benchmark: 20.5 - 22.8 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.6 - 21.8 Sierra Online
H335: 21.6 - 22.6 Sierra Online
Varget: 22.6 - 23.9 Sierra Online
 
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I use TAC with great results with the 69gr smk, ramshot online data is worth a look they list a wide range of 223 and 5.56 nato loads
 
Lots of guys I trust use TAC and RL-17 with heavies in 223/5.56. I just haven't personally used it much.
 
Note 1: The data below has been transcribed from its respectively (and respectfully) cited sources, proceed with caution with concern for typographical errors in the original publication or this transcription.

Note 2: Best known practices for safe and responsible load development should be followed. The personal opinions expressed below are exactly such. Personal opinions and un-cited, personal load data are only provided for informational purposes, and should not supersede your better judgement for safe reloading practices. The author and THR assume no liability for the use or misuse of this information.


Note 3: Some of these bullets are pretty particular in form, so generic data for one bullet may not well fit well with others. You'll note below, for example, the max load for the heavier 77 SMK is greater than that for the 75 VLD.

Note 4: The Hornady 73 and 75 ELD's share data, and Sierra suggests the same load data can be used for the 77 SMK and TMK. The COAL for these respective pairings are different, the data for the 73 vs. 75 ELD's provided below. I was not able to locate COAL data for the 77 TMK, such it was not provided. The 77 TMK is notably longer than the 77 SMK due to the lightweight polymer tip, and slightly different profile, such the COAL and seating depth will differ for the two, just as it does for the 73 and 75 ELD's.

Personally, I often don't follow the "start at the starting load and work up" rule. I never start at the max, but I also have been handloading long enough to know where I can get away with bending that overly conservative "better safe than at risk" rule. I know I'll never be satisfied with the performance of a round loaded at its starting load (in this example, approx 300fps slower than max load potential), so I typically only pick powders which should yield the velocity I desire, then judge the powder span and pick a responsible starting point somewhere at the bottom of my velocity tolerance, and work up from there. I consider this method to be LESS BLIND than buying a factory round and shoving it willy nilly into my rifle.

24grn Varget under the 77SMK (OVER BOOK) is a pretty standard load for Service Rifle, I've been shooting it for many years.

The Hornady ELD seems very tolerant of jump. The VLD's traditionally have been touted as a short jump bullet, or a jam, but I've attentively loaded some to jump as much as 50 thou and have been happy. I generally consider the SMK's my workhorse, so I like to load them with a short jump (5-15thou) to gain as much powder space as I can - BUT they'll jump just fine. I haven't fired the TMK enough to be familiar with what it likes, but I've shot well with it jumping 20thou so far. The 75 A-max/ELD is a LONG bullet (as is the 77 TMK). It can't be seated to AR mag length, as the bearing surface will be below the case mouth. I'm not sure what the mag length is in the Axis, but I would single feed it for this test, and let it be out near my lands, 20 thou or less. I'd single feed ALL of them, for this test, for that matter, whether they were over length or not, just to be sure everything stays in order during the round robin.

What I would do, given 11 bullets:

1 Bullet: Strip my bolt and seat progressively deeper to feel for the lands - make that one dummy for future reference - this is your kiss length, and everything should be shorter than this.

5 Bullets: Load up my "safe" mid-range load and shoot a round robin, cleaning and shooting some other foulers between each flight. Note any issues for vertical dispersion - if one bullet cries out for more powder, you have 5 left to take back to the reloading bench and pour on a little more steam to see if you can shrink it down.

Last 5: Back to the bench for more powder if needed, else load them up and play. OR you could load 5 with one powder, 5 with another. I personally think a guy learns more by running more loads with one powder, however.

I COULD BE CONVINCED to do 3 sets of 3 shot groups (+1) instead of 2 sets of 5 shot groups, giving myself more room to play with powder charge. But I much prefer 5 shot groups. In that case, I'd make my ONE dummy at kiss length, load 3 of each at 3 different powder charges. OR, you could compare 2 or 3 different powders...

I personally would shoot these at 200 or 300yrds (assuming your 300yrd groups aren't significantly bigger, in angular dispersion, than your 100's). This will give a little more info regarding bullet stability.

I'd be VERY tempted, if the first 3 or first 5 shot well at 100/300, to take the rest out to 500/600, assuming you 1) have a chrony, 2) know how to calc your dope, and/or 3) have sufficiently large targets to ensure you'll make contact.

Published data provided for reference.

69 SMK___________
COAL: 2.260
Benchmark: 21.5 - 23.5 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.0 - 23.6 Sierra Online
H335: 23.0 - 25.7 Sierra Online
Varget 19.9 - 26.4 Sierra Online

73 ELD-M__________
COAL: 2.250"
Varget: 21.8 - 24.6 Hornady 10th

75 A-max/ELD-M_____
COAL: 2.390"
Varget: 21.8 - 24.6 Hornady 10th

75 VLD_____________
COAL: 2.260"
Varget: 20.5 - 22.7 Berger 1st

77 SMK_____________
COAL: 2.260"
Benchmark: 20.5 - 22.8 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.6 - 21.8 Sierra Online
H335: 21.6 - 22.6 Sierra Online
Varget: 22.6 - 23.9 Sierra Online
How did you find sierra online data? I looked for 10min last night and couldn't find it.
 
Okay I got a dumb one for ya guys. If I will mainly be using these for 300yard matches and do the load workup and shoot them at 100yards (all I have access to at the moment) could there be a chance they shoot really good at 100yards and crappy at 300? I cant get to the 300yard range for about another month.
 
Anything is possible, but it's pretty rare for a bullet to spit the bit between 0 and 300, if it truly shoots well at 100. If you're getting other bullets into a half inch at 100, and one heavy/long bullet prints 1.2MOA at 100, I'd venture it's not going to be any happier at 300. If you can hold ANY bullet to sub-1" at 300yrds, if a given bullet holds 1/2" at 100, it isn't going to be 3" at 300... That said, it's only 10 bullets, so you don't have room to find a powder envelope which might bring a 1" group to a half inch. But you'll get an idea of whether it wants to shoot at all, or not.

Load up half of the bullets I sent, save the others for 300. Or shoot 2x 3 round groups at 100, save a 4 round group for 300 when it dies out...
 
Anything is possible, but it's pretty rare for a bullet to spit the bit between 0 and 300, if it truly shoots well at 100. If you're getting other bullets into a half inch at 100, and one heavy/long bullet prints 1.2MOA at 100, I'd venture it's not going to be any happier at 300. If you can hold ANY bullet to sub-1" at 300yrds, if a given bullet holds 1/2" at 100, it isn't going to be 3" at 300... That said, it's only 10 bullets, so you don't have room to find a powder envelope which might bring a 1" group to a half inch. But you'll get an idea of whether it wants to shoot at all, or not.

Load up half of the bullets I sent, save the others for 300. Or shoot 2x 3 round groups at 100, save a 4 round group for 300 when it dies out...
I think ill hold off until I can use the 300yard range. Thanks again for the bullets! 11 is plenty enough, I will make them work. :) If I'm getting 6'' groups then I know it doesn't like them and move onto the next batch/weight. From what I gather its a 2 or 3'' shoot n c on an f class target and 20 shots 20min. winner with the most in the shoot n c. Pretty sure its 2''. Ive got until mid March to get everything squared away.
 
My wife and I were talking yesterday, I have a precision rifle match "mid march," as you said it - unfortunately, "mid-march" is the weekend after next!!!
 
#4

69 SMK___________
COAL: 2.260
Benchmark: 21.5 - 23.5 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.0 - 23.6 Sierra Online
H335: 23.0 - 25.7 Sierra Online
Varget 19.9 - 26.4 Sierra Online

That is a huge spread for Varget. I shoot Varget regularly in .224 with 69-73 gr bullets. If the Sierra data was copied accurately, I would think about using another source.
 
#4

69 SMK___________
COAL: 2.260
Benchmark: 21.5 - 23.5 Hodgdon Online
H322: 20.0 - 23.6 Sierra Online
H335: 23.0 - 25.7 Sierra Online
Varget 19.9 - 26.4 Sierra Online

That is a huge spread for Varget. I shoot Varget regularly in .224 with 69-73 gr bullets. If the Sierra data was copied accurately, I would think about using another source.

@JO JO linked the Sierra manual data above, which I transcribed here.

Hodgdon offers 24.0 to 26.0C for Varget under the 69SMK. No real reason with Varget not to be comfortable below 24.0, but I can appreciate some folks don’t like low load densities.
 
I was just questioning the "spread" in the loads. I have a Savage 12 F/TR in .223 with a 1:7 twist and have found that with Berger 80 gr. VLD's, my best load with Varget was 22.1, way off the heaviest load. My best with 69 gr. SMK's was 22.7.That is irrelevant to a stated spread of almost seven grains in the data.

What I have done in the past is look at three sources, Lyman 49th, Hodgdon on line and the Berger manual. I take the median load blending the three and start from there
 
I have had good shooting with Varget, at loads slightly below the Hodgdon maximum.
The little bit of Re15 and 4064 I tried did well, too.
AA2520 was not as accurate in my rifle which is a shame because it meters so well as to make dispensing or trickling unnecessary.
 
Well Varget it is! Seeing how Varget packs most the case do you guys run a standard or magnum primer? I have some BR SR primers im going to try with it too.
 
No magnum primers, I splurge on CCI BR.

Why have you only got 10 shots to work with?
I knew a guy who would buy a new rifle, borrow six bullets, and if they did not shoot well, would trade off the rifle. I got my .22-250 from him. It shoots MY loads just fine.
 
No magnum primers, I splurge on CCI BR.

Why have you only got 10 shots to work with?
I knew a guy who would buy a new rifle, borrow six bullets, and if they did not shoot well, would trade off the rifle. I got my .22-250 from him. It shoots MY loads just fine.
A member on here was gracious enough to send me some to try. My savage rifle has a very short throat and i was worried about using the longer bullets in the gun so he sent me some sample packs to check a dummy round and 10 to shoot.
 
I shoot the Sierra 80gr MK over 22.8gr H4895 seated to 2.555"oal, in FC '12 match prepped brass.
Shoots .5moa from my 1/8" twist Wilson match barrel.
I shoot this at 600yds in CMP High Power, working on my Distinguished rifle badge.

Tried the other usual suspects, Varget, RL15, IMR4064, but it was H4895 that my barrel wanted.
 
The printed 5th edition of Sierra manual lists Varget for 69 SMK: start 23.3 gr - max 26.1 gr. My personal accuracy load for this is 24.6 gr with Win or CCI SP primers. Nosler lists start/max charges for Varget as 23.0 - 25.0, also using WSR primers under the 5.56x45 section online load data (same as their printed 8th edition). The link posted above to an Accurate Shooter article of Sierra Load data for the AR15 shows exactly this same charge range, 23.2 gr - 26.1 gr. The link to the bolt action loads for .223 show the range stated starting at 19.9 gr. So it is important to use the range for the type of action you have. Was that mentioned somewhere?
 
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