Help with tools...

[eejohnson]

Hello,
I have finally managed to get into a couple of the NRA gunsmith classes at Montgomery College. Many thanks need to go to my family for supporting this. Anyway, the budget is still a concern so I thought I would ask folks on a couple of different forums for opinions.

In my experience, tools fall into one of three categories:
One: Complete junk. With lots of cursing and a little luck, you might get through one job…
Two: Meh. Will hold up for a couple of jobs, but may still involve cursing. Great for beating on, using torque multipliers, cutting into custom shapes, etc…
Three: Good stuff. These get the job done every time.
Four: Masterworks. These are a pleasure to work with, but at the cost of a second mortgage.

So, with that in mind I am looking for the following stuff in the second or preferably third group and ideas on good places to buy them.



Drill Bit set: I need a complete 115 piece “three way” set. I am clueless on this one; I usually just sharpen up sometime from the box… so it is obviously something I really need!

Dial Caliper and micrometer: OK, I have never owned either one, so I am clueless on these as well. I suspect the ones at Harbor Freight are not up to the job, but a top of the line is not in the budget.

Screw driver set: I am leaning toward a Chapman set (8900 Gunsmithing) to get me started. I know a bit type set will have some “reach” problems, but I figure I can back fill with Grace style drivers as I need them. What do you guys think?

Punch Set, with Cup tips: The required tool list includes these from Brownells (080-000-645). They seem like a necessary tool for certain firearms, but they are pricy for a full set and I don’t know how often I would use them. Can anybody tell me which firearms need these? Are there any other (cheaper) place to buy them from?

Files: What do folks think is a good cut to go with that is between a bastard and a stone? I can’t find anything other then bastard files locally to “finger” test. Is “smooth” to fine?

Norten stones: Where to get…

Lath and Mill bits: Where to get…

Thanks,
Eric

 

[loadedround]

I would strongly suggest you get a copy of Brownell's catalog. The finest gunsmith's tools are listed there and they do advertise that they test the tools they sell. I have been a customer of theirs for over twenty years with complete satisfaction. BTW, I carry a Chapman screwdriver kit in my range bag and use Brownell's screwdrivers on the bench.

 

[Tom S.]

Loadedround's advice about Brownells is sound. They are without a doubt the number one supplier of gunsmith supplies and tools. If you have business or an FFL they do discounts too. I have and love their screwdriver set (along with a lot of other stuff from there!).

For the mic / dial calipers, stick with name brands like Starrett, Brown Sharpe, etc. To save money on them, buy them used. Craig's list is a good source. For either, as long as the measuring faces are good, they should be fine. However you should still check to make sure they operate smoothly. I prefer carbide tips on the mics so you don't have to worry about wear.

The only things I would consider buying from Harbour Freight are non-tool things like gloves, although they do have a good price on dental pics, which you use more than you know. Still, if you make friends with a dentist and can get his/her cast offs, they will be much superior to the HF's.

 

[MattTheHat]

I finally broke down and purchased a complete set of Brownell's MagnaTip screwdriver bits and several handles. I mostly shoot and work on 1911s, but I seem to find a use for one of the specially ground screwdriver bits every other week or so.

Brownell's is good people. If they carry it, you can pretty much figure it's worth owning.


-Matt

 

[Drail]

The Chapman set is good to start with but you will quickly outgrow it. Great for the range kit though. Be wary on the Grace screwdrivers, I have a full set with every single tip ground with the sides not parallel. They're not as good as they once were. The Brownells Magna tip sets are the best ones out there for the money. I buy handfulls of screwdriver bits from the building supply centers locally and grind them down to fit. You will become very proficient at this. If you think you will be using a lot of drill bits considering buying a fixture to regrind bits, it will pay for itself and you will always have sharp bits. Brownells is also the best source (though not the cheapest) for stones and files. You WILL use punches A LOT. Buy steel pin punches and starter punches and some brass ones also. The Starret set of pin punches from Brownells is very nice. You will need a drawer full of files. Also look for a good vise and either buy or make some padded jaw inserts for it. I made mine from some 2X2 in. aluminum angle and glued heavy leather pads into them. A small machinist's vise is nice to have. After many years they still work great. Get several sizes of brass or copper hammers to go with the punches. A drill press is invaluble and another really useful power tool is the combination with a grinding wheel on one side and a 5 in. disc sander with a tilting table on the other side. I have used that disc sander with table for many jobs over the years. Brownells will suck up most of your expendable income for a while. Welcome to the asylum.

 

[navyretired 1]

Gunsmith students get Brownells discount too. Their Mag-na-tip screwdrivers are the best, If you damage they replace,no questions ask. Just tell them on the phone and they replace the number bit damaged.
Calipers and micrometers for gunsmithing use are not at the Sterrett level requirement. when measuring to 0.001 smooth and calibrated chinese work fine. When you need 0.0001 then get the best.
On used tools if they zero and are smooth working they're probably OK.
If you go for the inexpensive 115 drill bit set, Get a Drill Doctor so you can sharpen them straight and even then you will trough some away and replace with American made. Indivdual US bits are fairly inexpensive but 115 set is very expensive and you can get some good us out of the imports.

 

[dfariswheel]

By far the best screwdrivers are the Brownell's Magna-Tip.
I recommend buying the Law Enforcement handle.
It's the perfect size for the best control for 99% of work.
Also get a big handle for heavy-duty work like screwing in butt plate screws, etc.

For punches, Brownell's. The replaceable tip models are the best, since when you bend or break a pin, you can simply replace it right there.
I recommend three sets, one standard, one "starter" set, and one roll pin set, all with extra replacement pins.

Stones can be bought from Brownell's or most any machine shop or knifemaker's supply house.
Check the stones at Jantz Supply and Texas Knifemaker's Supply, both knife maker supply houses.
You should also buy ceramic stones, since these don't wear like Arkansas or other synthetics.

Files can be bought at Brownell's the knife maker supply houses, AND for the smaller files, at a watchmaker's supply house.
They sell the top of the line Swiss files in various sizes a patterns.
Watchmaker houses sell various sizes and cuts of the "hand" file which is a non-tapered flat file that's very useful.
One "real" source is Jules Borel. This is an old line genuine watchmaker and jeweler supply house.

http://www.julesborel.com/

Above all, get a Brownell's catalog. This is easier to find what you need than the web site, although the latest additions show up there first.

 

[Neil C]

This link should get you to the recommended tools for your courses: http://www.montgomery.edu/cenra.htm If you do not find it there, try here: http://www.montgomery.edu/acgunsmith_toollist.pdf although that might be too broad for you at the moment. Lot of really good advice already in this thread.

 

[sophijo]

calipers & mic

I bought mine at a local pawn shop Mitoyu (sp) $30 each. Make a good inspection before you buy and they will "dicker".

 

[RedAlert]

Ask around for retiring machinists. Many of them sell their tools. You can get a good deal then.

 

[Equestrian]

go to MSC on the internet the big book is free ad they have every machine tool and accessory you could ever need/want from cheap Chinese up to pro grade plus orders over $25 ship free

 

[eejohnson]

Hey folks,

First thanks for all of the great replies, you guys are great!

FYI… I will be cut and pasting part of this reply to a couple threads on several forums. Please don’t think I am being weird or trolling or something…

Calipers: I am getting mixed opinions on these. Some folks are saying go with the best (Starret, Brown&Sharpe, Mitutoyo) other folks are saying that you don’t need anything that good for gunsmithing. Any thoughts on something in the middle, maybe from Fowler or SPI?

Drill bit sets: I am leaning towards a cheap import set for the class and buying good bits as I need them. However, if an OK set could be had for between $100-150, I might go that way. I have seen American sets for that cheep, but no name brand listed; Are these any better that a $50 import set?

Other thoughts and replies:

I would like to make and buy tools as I go, but the classes I am attending have a required list of tools. I have only asked questions about a few of the tools, the list for one of the classes came out to about $650.00 worth of tools from Brownells.

Speaking of Brownells, I love them! They have great stuff, customer support and jigs that you can’t find anywhere else. However, they are not cheep. Just by sourcing the more common tools with different venders, I have worked that list down to $450.00.

I will need lot’s more tools then are on this list to be a gunsmith. (which is why I am stressing about the budget.)

I will need lot’s more schooling then these classes to be a gunsmith. (which is also why I am stressing about the budget.)

I love the “buy a cheap set and grind them” idea for screwdrivers, but I need a set for the class. I plan to have a handful of home depot grade bits with me to grind down as well.

Mag-na-tip’s seem to be a favorite for the screwdrivers. They are a little more then the sets I was looking at, but sound worth it.

The NRA classes are seminar style, the two classes I am taking are three weeks total.
(http://www.montgomery.cc.nc.us/cenra.htm)
Brownells only gives discounts to full time students. I plan on e-mailing them to see if they would give me a one time discount. Doesn’t hurt to ask…

I live in Northern VA, and the pawn shops suck. The ones I have found (in Manassas) are mostly jewelry, the tools and firearms are overpriced junk that has been in the window so long they’re sun faded.

Jewlery supply places are great for tools, I like:
http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/dremel
http://www.jewelrysupply.com/jewelry_making_supply_tools.html
Progress machine & Tool, (progresstool.com) Someone mentioned having issues finding files, these folks have quite the selection.

Other sources that folks have mentioned (I haven’t looked into all of these yet):

grizzly tool catalog
enco catalog
Wholesale tool (wttool.com)
Msc
mcmaster-carr
travers
http://www.borideabrasives.com/index.php
Manhatten Supply
KBC Tools
http://www.julesborel.com/
Garret-Wade
Woodworker's Supply

Thanks,
Eric

 

[jimmyraythomason]

I have a 0-1" mic from Mac tools and another from Harbor Freight. Both read the same and both work smoothly. I paid $120 for the Mac and $18 for the HF. Your choice. Also you can get very good deals on drill bits and file at HF. FWIW I love Brownell's but when I bought my glassbead media,Brownell's wanted $80 plus freight for 20 pounds. I bought 40 pounds from Harbor Freight for $38+tax and no freight. Again your choice. BTW,I use Brownell's Magna-tip screwdrivers,all of the bits in my Chapman kit snapped like twigs.

 

[rcmodel]

Half the machinists in the United States are out of a job.
The pawn shops are full to over-flowing with high quality miks, calipers, thread pitch gages, machinists squares, etc.

I'd start looking there for good buys.

A used, but well cared for Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, or Mitutoyo micrometer or caliper is good for the rest of your life.

I'm still using a B&S carbide-face 1" micrometer I bought in a pawn shop in 1962 for .10 cents on the dollar for what they sold for new.

rc

 

[jimmyraythomason]

that you don’t need anything that good for gunsmithing

Buy the best you can afford. I'm with RC in that IF you can get good quality precision tools used for a reasonable price it is better than buying a lesser quality new at the same price.

 

[Equestrian]

i LOVE pawn shops i get deals most cant even imagine i have a caliper and mic by starret that were given to me there very old but still dead accurate and will last forever if maintained (oiled kept clean. )i have heard great things about mitutoyo and they seem to b good quality but i currently don't have any need to find out for myself try your pawn shops these are precision tools and you get what you pay for. lear to red a vernier mic its a cool skill try craigslist

 

[jimmyraythomason]

you get what you pay for.

not always true. Some of the crappiest tools I've bought over a lifetime have come with the highest price tag.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Be sure to save all of your tool receipts. Tools for your job are tax deductible.

 

[Tom S.]

For the mic and calipers, stay with name brand for a couple of reasons. The first, as stated, they will last you for life. Second is if you buy them used and take care of them, you will be able to sell them for about what you paid for them. I see them all the time on Craig's list at very resonable prices. My calipers are Brown & Sharpe and although they are over 40 years old, they work and look like new.

For drill bits, do not buy the foreign (read C-h-i-n-a) crap. I've seen some of those damn things bend, something a good high speed drill would never do, unless you were doing something very very wrong! Buy good high speed drills to start with. They are reasonable in price and if you learn how, you can resharpen them easily with a bench grinder and a drill gauge or with a drill sharpener. Later on as your tool budget expands, you may wish to buy a few of the ones you use most in carbide, especially for drilling tough material like stainless. Coated drills are ok, but once you have to resharpen one, the coating is gone and it becomes just another drill bit, so I don't bother with them.

 

[smokey262]

I agree on good drill bits. If you have to economize just get the 29 piece fractional set, and buy individual letter and number drills as required for tapping.

Chinese crap drill bits have roughly finished areas in the bottom of the flutes and do not convey chips properly, and they simply do not keep an edge