Helpless Venezuelans lament losing guns, right to stand up to government

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AlexanderA said:
If you carefully read Beto's statement on guns, that you posted, you see that he wants to ban the commercial sale of assault weapons, not the guns themselves. This is a fairly moderate statement, by Democratic party standards.
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"you see that he wants to ban the commercial sale of assault weapons, not the guns themselves."Really? Did you type that with a straight face?

He wants to ban the AR-15, period. The only reason there may be a grandfather clause is they don't think they can get the votes without it. Chip, chip, chip away at the stone. Just say no.

Next time they think they have the votes, they will vote to take them away entirely. Chip, chip, chip away at the stone. Just say no.

Stop pretending to be a gun owner who likes and shoots ARs (AKs whatever), and then continue to say it is OK for the AR 15 to be banned because they will have a grandfather clause. Existing ones or new ones, doesn't matter. This is when you sound like an anti, as I have told you before. I can accept any of your liberal views and simply agree or disagree, but when you start your anti "assault" weapons crap I have to point it out. "See, I'm a gun owner and I think it is OK to ban ARs." Not the first time you have played that card.
 
SilentStalker said:
You completely baffle me with some of your statements. Are you on a pro gun forum making the argument for an anti gun politician? The way I read your post is that you are in agreement with him banning the sell of commercially available, as you say, assault weapons. Really? No, but hell no!!! What exactly is an assault weapon? Is it any more lethal than any other firearm out there? Frankly, I’m not in agreement with any of this. I don’t know how you consider yourself pro gun with making statements like this. You must be friends with The Liberal lol.
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No, I'm not in agreement with O'Rourke and the other Democrats on guns. However, I'm pointing out that he's not as bad on this as some of the others. In November 2020, the choice will boil down to one of these Democrats versus Trump (that is, if Trump is not forced to resign before that). Trump is completely unacceptable to me for a variety of reasons (including, btw, his lack of delivering anything positive on guns while pushing for a bump stock ban). So I would rather have a less-bad (on guns) Democrat running against Trump than a more-bad Democrat running. At least I wouldn't be faced with another Hillary, who was so bad I ended up not voting at all.
 
AlexanderA said:
So I would rather have a less-bad (on guns) Democrat running against Trump than a more-bad Democrat running. At least I wouldn't be faced with another Hillary, who was so bad I ended up not voting at all.
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I suppose that is understandable. Certainly not optimal, but understandable. Getting the anti gun politicians out of the Democratic party is going to be an uphill battle, especially when the ones in control are rabidly anti gun.
 
AlexanderA said:
No, I'm not in agreement with O'Rourke and the other Democrats on guns. However, I'm pointing out that he's not as bad on this as some of the others. In November 2020, the choice will boil down to one of these Democrats versus Trump (that is, if Trump is not forced to resign before that). Trump is completely unacceptable to me for a variety of reasons (including, btw, his lack of delivering anything positive on guns while pushing for a bump stock ban). So I would rather have a less-bad (on guns) Democrat running against Trump than a more-bad Democrat running. At least I wouldn't be faced with another Hillary, who was so bad I ended up not voting at all.
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Geez.

Walkalong said:
I suppose that is understandable. Certainly not optimal, but understandable. Getting the anti gun politicians out of the Democratic party is going to be an uphill battle, especially when the ones in control are rabidly anti gun.
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No it’s not! Trump hasn’t made any threats about banning regular arms. And the bumpstock deal hasn’t been signed yet. So...saying you want someone like Beto over Trump is crazy! While he hasn’t passed anything positive yet he hasn’t taken anything away just yet either. I’ll wait to hold judgement against the man, but Beto is clear what he wants to do. You also forget that Pence might run as well.
 
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Hmm, I wonder why Trump gave his lukewarm support for a possible bump stock ban initially and gave it to the ATF?

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Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California, has proposed legislation banning bump stocks and has more than three dozen co-sponsors, all Democrats.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/08/...ational-rifle-association-mass-shootings.html

http://bangordailynews.com/2018/02/21/politics/Democrats-renew-push-for-maine-bump-stock-ban/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...illinois-legislature-guns-20171024-story.html

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/politics/bs-md-assault-weapons-ban-20171127-story.html

https://nhlabornews.com/2017/10/has...ts-push-bump-stock-ban-but-more-must-be-done/

https://www.nydailynews.com/newswir...cities-lead-bump-stock-bans-article-1.3799707

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Compromising with Democrats Socialists looking to take away rights is dealing with the devil.

A better position is to just say 'No' and to refuse to compromise in any way. We're just giving up rights, not like we're getting anything out of the deal.

I imagine bump stock owners will give them more of the same when they've done this in Mass and NJ.

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Walkalong said:
Stop pretending to be a gun owner who likes and shoots ARs (AKs whatever), and then continue to say it is OK for the AR 15 to be banned because they will have a grandfather clause. Existing ones or new ones, doesn't matter. This is when you sound like an anti, as I have told you before. I can accept any of your liberal views and simply agree or disagree, but when you start your anti "assault" weapons crap I have to point it out. "See, I'm a gun owner and I think it is OK to ban ARs." Not the first time you have played that card.
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I have never said that it's OK to ban AR's! In fact I have repeatedly said that I would like to see gun restrictions -- especially the Hughes Amendment -- reversed. What I am trying to do is navigate my way through an environment increasingly hostile to guns. If the best we can get is a grandfathering of existing guns, then I'd rather have that than a flat prohibition with no grandfathering and no compensation. That may be the choice we are actually faced with in the next few years.
 
This is why it’s so very difficult to come to any sort of compromise with the gun community. Sensible members with whom we liberals can find common ground are shouted down by your extremists.

WRT Venezuela, the core problem is economics and rampant corruption. More guns might have made it more like Somalia, but the core problem is an inability to feed and power vast segments of society due to corruption, economic malpractice and an economy backed by oil nearly exclusively.
 
Walkalong said:
Just say no, stop saying the sky is falling we better get ready. Don't be a quitter.
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It is falling, though. How many young Americans now are joining the gun community as positive members and not immediately leaving as they engage our more...extreme members? Is it more than those joining the anti-gun community?
 
AlexanderA said:
I have never said that it's OK to ban AR's! In fact I have repeatedly said that I would like to see gun restrictions -- especially the Hughes Amendment -- reversed. What I am trying to do is navigate my way through an environment increasingly hostile to guns. If the best we can get is a grandfathering of existing guns, then I'd rather have that than a flat prohibition with no grandfathering and no compensation. That may be the choice we are actually faced with in the next few years.
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Um, if that’s your strategy then just go ahead and give all of your arms to me. Your gambling your rights away with this strategy. Just stand up and say no, period. They want to round them all up and take them away then at least talk some monetary compensation and actually go through the process to amend the Constitution like they are supposed to, you know like follow the law. So, until the Constitution is amended and guns are actually outlawed then I’ll hang on to mine. Actually I’m hanging on to mine regardless. You do what you want but please don’t bargain for the rest of us. My gosh, we all might as well just give up if half of our supporters think like this. Where is my American Patriots? If you recall, the politicians work for us, not the other way around. You act like you are bargaining with a dictator to keep some semblance of a right. Ridiculous. I have no idea what the hell happened to my country.
 
The Liberal said:
This is why it’s so very difficult to come to any sort of compromise with the gun community. Sensible members with whom we liberals can find common ground are shouted down by your extremists.
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Keep trying to turn up the heat and we'll keep saying 'No!!!' and jumping out of the pot of warm water.

We aren't giving up our rights to appease you.

WRT Venezuela, the core problem is economics and rampant corruption. More guns might have made it more like Somalia, but the core problem is an inability to feed and power vast segments of society due to corruption, economic malpractice and an economy backed by oil nearly exclusively.
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Sure, that's what caused their economic collapse and the starvation of their country.

The thing is that now they obviously have the will to revolt and change things around, but not the means.

You forgot socialism as one of the causes though.
 
The Liberal said:
This is why it’s so very difficult to come to any sort of compromise with the gun community. Sensible members with whom we liberals can find common ground are shouted down by your extremists.

WRT Venezuela, the core problem is economics and rampant corruption. More guns might have made it more like Somalia, but the core problem is an inability to feed and power vast segments of society due to corruption, economic malpractice and an economy backed by oil nearly exclusively.
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And you dont see that coming here? America is a few steps away from being a VZ at any point in time. The only good news is that if we go down the rest of the world will be hurting as well, if you consider that good news. When I look at our gov I see corruption at its highest levels on both sides. You don’t think the power they wield could eventually turn us into something like VZ with zero guns? I see patterns that mimick others in history. We see very different views. What do the Democrats in power do that you think helps our country. Educate me.
 
The Liberal said:
This is why it’s so very difficult to come to any sort of compromise with the gun community. Sensible members with whom we liberals can find common ground are shouted down by your extremists.
WRT Venezuela, the core problem is economics and rampant corruption. More guns might have made it more like Somalia, but the core problem is an inability to feed and power vast segments of society due to corruption, economic malpractice and an economy backed by oil nearly exclusively.
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If by compromise you mean agreeing to extreme restrictions, infringements on privacy/due process (none of which will have any effect on reducing crime) in exchange for, well, usually nothing, then yeah, most of us aren't willing to compromise.

The Liberal said:
It is falling, though. How many young Americans now are joining the gun community as positive members and not immediately leaving as they engage our more...extreme members? Is it more than those joining the anti-gun community?
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If they are eager to willingly give away their rights, how much of a positive impact are they going to have anyway?
 
Browning said:
A better position is to just say 'No' and to refuse to compromise in any way. We're just giving up rights, not like we're getting anything out of the deal.
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"Compromise" is not the operative word as long as the other side isn't willing to give up anything. A better term would be "mitigating the damage." If AW's are going to be banned anyway, it would be far better to have grandfathering than to have a flat prohibition without grandfathering and without compensation. I expect to be faced directly with this after next year's legislative election in Virginia, when the Democrats are expected to take control of both houses. The Democratic governor, Northam, is already pushing heavily for an AWB. The exact parameters of this ban are going to determine whether I stay in the state, or move to Texas or West Virginia. Being in my 70's, I'm getting too old for major moves. Maybe we can lobby to have AW's included in the state Uniform Machine Gun Act rather than be banned altogether.
 
AlexanderA said:
"Compromise" is not the operative word as long as the other side isn't willing to give up anything. A better term would be "mitigating the damage." If AW's are going to be banned anyway, it would be far better to have grandfathering than to have a flat prohibition without grandfathering and without compensation. I expect to be faced directly with this after next year's legislative election in Virginia, when the Democrats are expected to take control of both houses. The Democratic governor, Northam, is already pushing heavily for an AWB. The exact parameters of this ban are going to determine whether I stay in the state, or move to Texas or West Virginia. Being in my 70's, I'm getting too old for major moves. Maybe we can lobby to have AW's included in the state Uniform Machine Gun Act rather than be banned altogether.
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You don't get it. They might grandfather you this time. But next time they will demand you turn them in. Hell, it's happening that way right now.
 
Also worth noting that VZ has nothing like American culture or skepticism for government, nor federalism as we know it.
 
AlexanderA said:
"Compromise" is not the operative word as long as the other side isn't willing to give up anything. A better term would be "mitigating the damage." If AW's are going to be banned anyway, it would be far better to have grandfathering than to have a flat prohibition without grandfathering and without compensation. I expect to be faced directly with this after next year's legislative election in Virginia, when the Democrats are expected to take control of both houses. The Democratic governor, Northam, is already pushing heavily for an AWB. The exact parameters of this ban are going to determine whether I stay in the state, or move to Texas or West Virginia. Being in my 70's, I'm getting too old for major moves. Maybe we can lobby to have AW's included in the state Uniform Machine Gun Act rather than be banned altogether.
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We've been having our gun rights given away since the inception of this country.

'Slave codes', 'black codes', laws that cities and states passed in the 1800's and early 1900's preventing people from carrying guns in town that expanded into a prohibition of carrying loaded pistols virtually anywhere in some locations, the National Firearms Act (NFA 1934), Federal Firearms Act of 1938, Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), the Hughes Amendment, Brady Bill, Bush I import ban, Clinton AWB that stayed on with many states after the sunset in 2004, Clinton import ban, NICS Act 2007, Obama's Executive Actions, now this compromise of Trump's.

This also doesn't include a virtual landslide of individual city and state legislation against firearms.

We've been doing nothing but giving up Rights. No More
 
Browning said:
We've been having our gun rights given away since the inception of this country.

"Slave codes', 'black codes', laws that cities and states passed in the 1800's and early 1900's preventing people from carrying guns in town that expanded into a prohibition of carrying loaded pistols virtually anywhere in some locations, the National Firearms Act (NFA 1934), Federal Firearms Act of 1938, Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), the Hughes Amendment, Brady Bill, Bush I import ban, Clinton AWB that stayed on with many states after the sunset in 2004, Clinton import ban, NICS Act 2007, Obama's Executive Actions, now this compromise of Trump's.

This also doesn't include a virtual landslide of individual city and state legislation against firearms.

We've been doing nothing but giving up Rights. No More.
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What makes you think you have a say?

Most Americans support stricter gun controls. Most Americans are tired of mass shootings and useless “thoughts and prayers” and gun community bleating. Most of us are tired of the gun community’s lobbyists serving as a thinly-veiled arm of the Kremlin. Most Americans see gun owners as the deplorable third of our society that needs to be corrected of we are to solve problems. And we do almost nothing to change that perception.

So what will you do when the laws and Constitution are followed and gun control gets stricter?
 
The Liberal said:
It is falling, though. How many young Americans now are joining the gun community as positive members and not immediately leaving as they engage our more...extreme members? Is it more than those joining the anti-gun community?
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Anti language all the way. They love to talk compromise but gun owners never get anything in return, they only lose. "extreme"? lol, is "just say no" extreme?

The sky is not falling, that is just an anti tactic to scare people (Like you maybe?) into giving something up. Just say no.

AlexanderA said:
A better term would be "mitigating the damage." If AW's are going to be banned anyway, it would be far better to have grandfathering than to have a flat prohibition without grandfathering and without compensation
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Again, more anti talk designed to scare the new to the game gun owner into being scared and willing to give something up. Just say no.
 
The Liberal said:
What makes you think you have a say?

Most Americans support stricter gun controls. Most Americans are tired of mass shootings and useless “thoughts and prayers” and gun community bleating. Most of us are tired of the gun community’s lobbyists serving as a thinly-veiled arm of the Kremlin. Most Americans see gun owners as the deplorable third of our society that needs to be corrected of we are to solve problems. And we do almost nothing to change that perception.

So what will you do when the laws and Constitution are followed and gun control gets stricter?
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Wow, you have really gone off the deep end this time. You are running the game straight out of the antis play book.
 
The Liberal said:
It is falling, though. How many young Americans now are joining the gun community as positive members and not immediately leaving as they engage our more...extreme members? Is it more than those joining the anti-gun community?
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I've mentored at least a dozen.

All of those I gave instruction and roughly half I just gave them a gun and in some cases 10 mags, a holster and ammo. In two of the cases I took them to classes and paid for it.

I imagine that each member here telling you that you're incorrect represent their own dozen.
 
Walkalong said:
@The Liberal

You have 19 posts, all of which are in two threads where you are spouting the same anti garbage.
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So? I’m a liberal who believes in reasonable gun control and a RKBA that is both responsible and reasonable for Americans.

Just because I don’t believe assault rifles should be available at Academy doesn’t mean I don’t support the 2A.
 
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