Here is new Ballistic gel testing out of .45 Shield with winter wear

[gqllc007]

.45 Shield
January 20,2017
Weather 35*, Pressure 30inHg, Humidity 83%
FBI clearballistics 16x6x6 block with T bone 6x6x20" resulting in 22" in length
Block stored in 68* and utilized in 2 minutes of being outside
Block had one layer of each of medium weight nylon filled with polyester winter coat, followed by 200gr polartec fleece and 5.3oz Tshirt
This is typical winter attire here in NY. I used no denim as no one seems to be wearing denim around their chest
Results
Underwood 230+P XTP 20.5" penetration, .593" expansion
Underwood 185+P XTP 22" penetration, .55" expansion
Underwood 230+P bonded JHP 14" penetration, .677 expansion
Underwood 185+P bonded JHP 13.5" penetration, .690 expansion
Underwood Xtreme defense 120gr 17" penetration not designed to expand.
This Xtreme defense bullet went to 17" penetration in bare, 4 layers of denim and this test. Very consistent
Winchester Ranger 230+P over 22" and no expansion
Federal HST 230+P was the BIG surprise for me yet again. In bare gel it only went to 11 3/4" penetration and .880 expansion
In 4 layers of denim it passed through 20" of gel 3 out of 4 times. The 4th time in 4 layers it penetrated to 11 1/2" and .820 expansion.
Today the HST 230+p gr was STELLAR. Penetrated to 16" 3 out of 3 times and expanded to .859 on the widest one and .771 on the lowest expanded bullet.
So I did a 2 layer Hanes white cotton t-shirt test and the Federal 230gr HST+P penetrated to 13" and expanded to .875 on one round and penetrated to 13" and .818" on the other round
The standard pressure HST 230 did not do well at all in regards to penetration.
Through winter layers it penetrated 11-12" but expansion was incredible .912!!!
Through the two layer cotton t-shirt was 10 1/2'-11" penetration with .922 expansion!!!
Corbon DPX 185+P is by far the most consistent JHP so far out of the Shield. Penetrated to 14 1/2 to 15 1/2" regardless of bare, 4 layers of denim and this winter wear test. Expansion was between .750 and .780.
Looks like I will use Federal HST 230+P in the fall and winter time and undecided for the spring and summer. Either the Underwood Xtreme defense or the Corbon DPX 185+P

 

[Casefull]

No criticism intended but gel is poor indicator compared to muscle and bone if there is that much penetration from 45acp. Thanks for sharing your results.

 

[wally]

These were mostly +P loads, many of which appear to have "clogged" and had minimal or no expansion. Is it problems with the bullet design or the velocity loss from the short barrel of the .45 Shield?

Penetration of ~12" is generally considered adequate, a bit more is usually desirable as in defensive shootings it happens a lot that the bullet goes through a hand or arm before entering the torso.

I quit worrying about bullets and expansion long ago and worry far more about my ability to place the bullet on the target where it will be effective. Bullet placement is far more important that caliber or which bullet it happens to be as long as the penetration is adequate to get to the vitals.

The Regan assassination attempt is the classic illustration of this, with a .22 there were two true "one shot drops" from accidentally very well placed bullets, and the intended victim didn't know he was hit until he saw the blood from a poorly place bullet -- although it came close to killing him about an hour later, it was a non-issue as a fight stopper.

 

[DMK]

No criticism intended but gel is poor indicator compared to muscle and bone if there is that much penetration from 45acp. Thanks for sharing your results.

Do you have a better metric to use for comparing the different rounds on the market?

 

[gqllc007]

These were mostly +P loads, many of which appear to have "clogged" and had minimal or no expansion. Is it problems with the bullet design or the velocity loss from the short barrel of the .45 Shield?

Penetration of ~12" is generally considered adequate, a bit more is usually desirable as in defensive shootings it happens a lot that the bullet goes through a hand or arm before entering the torso.

I quit worrying about bullets and expansion long ago and worry far more about my ability to place the bullet on the target where it will be effective. Bullet placement is far more important that caliber or which bullet it happens to be as long as the penetration is adequate to get to the vitals.

The Regan assassination attempt is the classic illustration of this, with a .22 there were two true "one shot drops" from accidentally very well placed bullets, and the intended victim didn't know he was hit until he saw the blood from a poorly place bullet -- although it came close to killing him about an hour later, it was a non-issue as a fight stopper.

I think the 12" average is due to the short barrel of the Shield. The .45 was designed for a longer 5" barrel

 

[wally]

I think the 12" average is due to the short barrel of the Shield. The .45 was designed for a longer 5" barrel

Which why I really like the .40S&W in sub-compacts (barrels 3.5" or less). The 180gr .40 has the same sectional density 230gr .45 and generally because of the much higher operating pressure its typically 100+ fps faster than the .45 in the same barrel length, which helps with maintaining adequate penetration

All things being equal (which they never really are) Bullets with the same sectional density and velocity should have the same penetration in the same medium.

 

[DMK]

I think the 12" average is due to the short barrel of the Shield. The .45 was designed for a longer 5" barrel

I love shooting my 45 Shield, but I won't carry it in place of my 9mm Shield for that reason. With the low velocity from a short barrel, the HPs will either not expand or if they do, they will under penetrate. Even from the best rounds on the market today, performance has been inconsistent in gel (Some rounds in a string will expand, some won't). The better 9mm and .40S&W loads out of 3" barrels have shown to be much more consistent with 12"-14" and full expansion, in multiple ballistic gel tests by different testers.

I have not seen extensive testing with the 45ACP Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel load however. I hope that this round may prove to be an exception to the norm. Federal also has a Short Barrel HST load in .380 and 9mm. I hope that they make a Short Barrel load in 45ACP as well.

Right now I won't carry a 45ACP gun with a barrel shorter than 4"

 

[DMK]

Which why I really like the .40S&W in sub-compacts (barrels 3.5" or less). The 180gr .40 has the same sectional density 230gr .45 and generally because of the much higher operating pressure its typically 100+ fps faster than the .45 in the same barrel length, which helps with maintaining adequate penetration.

Unfortunately, out of a short barrel gun the 45ACP has the same problem that 32ACP and .380 have with HPs. They just don't have enough velocity to overcome the parachute effect of a fully expanded HP and at the same time meet the > 12" penetration requirement.

In top performing loads, 9mm, .357, and 40S&W have sufficient velocity to consistently push that expanded round deep despite the added drag of full expansion. Unfortunately, 45ACP can only do that consistently when shot out of 4" or longer barrels.

 

[gqllc007]

So far I have been getting excellent expansion and penetration with 185+P Cor-bon DPX and I just tested Remington Golden Saber 185+P which did excellent. Penetration to 15 1/2"-16" and expansion at .715" Golden sabers are readily available. The DPX is hard to find

 

[gqllc007]

On a side note I did 10 rounds of HST 124gr standard pressure out of my PC Shield into medium weight jacket, hoodie and t shirt.
10 out of 10 expanded beautifully to .671" average. The shallowest penetration was 15 1/2". The deepest was 17 1/2" I will carry that round in all my 9mm's

 

[Stubert]

Lucky gunner did a test on a lot of ammo. Their results for the 185 +P golden saber also mirrored yours. It is what I carry in a Colt Defender and has been 100% reliable in my pistol.

 

[wnycollector]

On a side note I did 10 rounds of HST 124gr standard pressure out of my PC Shield into medium weight jacket, hoodie and t shirt.
10 out of 10 expanded beautifully to .671" average. The shallowest penetration was 15 1/2". The deepest was 17 1/2" I will carry that round in all my 9mm's

That is the load I carry in my S&W 908s.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Most HP factory loads are loaded for longer barrels. Powder matters that much. On the market now are some short barrel HP rounds that get a better velocity than the common loads using a more suitable powder in the compacts. Now how well they are doing compared to one another I couldn't tell you beyond some test with HST and a few others but there are a few guys out that test many pistol rounds and share the results on YouTube. I think TNoutdoors9 and ShootingTheBull410 in the Ammoquest series.

Same problem with HP bullet design. They pretty much tune the design to begin expanding at point X with Y velocity and hit in the Y depth zone in test media. Change the velocity enough and it changes what the bullet was designed to do in a 4-5" barrel average.

 

[Yo Mama]

Do you have a better metric to use for comparing the different rounds on the market?

Ribs man,.....rack of ribs.....

 

[JohnBiltz]

How is the recoil out of a +P .45 in something the size of a Shield? I'm thinking pretty bad. Frankly, those numbers are not moving me away from a 9mm Gold Dot 124+P or a HST out of a same size gun.

 

[DMK]

How is the recoil out of a +P .45 in something the size of a Shield? I'm thinking pretty bad. Frankly, those numbers are not moving me away from a 9mm Gold Dot 124+P or a HST out of a same size gun.

I dont know about +p, but comparing my 9mm shield loaded with standard 124gr to my 45 shield loaded with standard 230gr, there isnt a huge difference. The guns are very easy to shoot for a subcompact.

Now side by side, my Colt CCO is much softer shooting than the Shield.

 

[gqllc007]

How is the recoil out of a +P .45 in something the size of a Shield? I'm thinking pretty bad. Frankly, those numbers are not moving me away from a 9mm Gold Dot 124+P or a HST out of a same size gun.

The HST 230+p, Corbon DPX +p is not much different and not too bad compared to standard pressure. The Golden Saber 185+P packs a wallop and has definitely more recoil

 

[Stubert]

I carry the Golden Saber 185 +P in a Colt Defender, 3" barrel, 24 oz. empty. Recoil is not bad, a bit snappy but not at all abusive.

 

[gqllc007]

I carry the Golden Saber 185 +P in a Colt Defender, 3" barrel, 24 oz. empty. Recoil is not bad, a bit snappy but not at all abusive.

Excellent description. SNAPPY.. It was like shooting my G33 Sig .357. Snappy but not abusive. I found it easier than shooting the G27 .40

 

[DMK]

Excellent description. SNAPPY..

How would you guys compare 185gr +P .45 to 180gr .40 S&W?

Have any of you guys shot both rounds in S&W Shields?

 

[sakata8242]

Common misconception that gel is supposed to "simulate" living tissue of varying density. That's not the the point of gelatin. It's to facilitate uniformity of ballistics tests in order to make meaningful comparisons between different rounds. You can shoot the same round out of the same gun 10 times into 10 different racks of ribs and in all liklihood you'll get 10 different results. Not only is it a waste of 10 perfectly good racks of ribs, there is no possible way to make meaningful comparisons between different cartridges' performance.