Hi-Cap pistol mags as a civilian?

[DRMMR02]

First of all, I totally believe almost anything should be legal and available, including Hi-Cap mags and select fire. This is not a thread debating legality.

Are Hi-Cap pistol magazines in weaker calibers such as 9mm worth it for a regular civilian? I understand military and police needing a lot of rounds for covering fire, or for engaging multiple targets. But for an average Joe, it seems like you don't really need 15 shots. 10, or even 8 would probably do with your standard mugger or home invader. So why not use a more powerful cartridge like .45ACP with an 8+1 round weapon? 9 rounds total seems like plenty for most anything one would come up against in normal life, plus the more powerful cartridge usually has better performance. It seems that those extra 5 or 6 rounds are a worthy trade for more power since most people won't really need to empty a 15rd mag in a mugging or burglary situation. I know the recoil on 9mm is a lot less than .45, but that is kinda besides the point. My premise is that you will almost never fire more than 3 maybe 4 shots at a mugger or burglar. Who is really gonna empty 15 rds at some petty thug? Wouldn't 1 or 2 more powerful shots be a better trade?

Also, I know some people with small hands or arms might not be able to really handle a larger cartridge. I mean for people who can handle either, but choose something like 9mm for the Hi-Cap.

 

[springmom]

Well, I do use a .45 acp, in a Kimber Ultra Carry II, but I carry two extra mags with me. I'd carry more but the blinking things are expensive That has me at 21-24 rounds (can't remember at the moment if they hold seven each, I think so, plus one in the chamber).

Thing is, there may not be just one bad guy. And in the adrenaline-soaked moment, I might not get each round exactly where I want it, which means I may need to fire more than once or twice. Assuming I were to turn into a female version of Rob Leatham in this moment of stress, one magazine could theoretically take care of, say, three bad guys (assuming no one-shot stops).

If I don't morph into Leatham's shadow self, then I may very well need all three mags.

If I were carrying my BHP, which carries 13 per mag, then I'd have more wiggle room for multiple bad guys. It is a subject of long and spirited debate as to whether that would mean I would also NEED more bullets since the BHP is a 9mm and I'm not even gonna go there.

So the long way around the barn to a short answer...yes, civilians may well need high-capacity mags. (And better to have and not need, than to need and not have.)

Springmom

 

[Handgun Midas]

Lotta 1911's out there..

I carry a single stack .45 myself, a Ruger, actually. Plus a spare mag.
Something about double stack mags I just find... unsexy.

 

[AJAX22]

It's a simple case of 'its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it'

I think you'll find that philosophy is applied to alot of things around here.

Additionally it should be noted that in many handguns there is no difference in size between a ten round mag and a 15 or 17 round magazine, in this scenario lower capacity is wasted space.

 

[J. Parker]

I live in the boonies about ten miles from town. I have a hi-cap 9mm and a hi-cap 45. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy to have all that firepower 'cause it will be awhile before the law arrives!

Actually, "hi-cap" is somewhat of a misnomer. These so-called "hi-cap" mags are actually "standard-cap" mags. The standard mag for a Glock 17 is a 17rd mag, the standard mag for a Ruger P89 is a 15rd mag, etc, etc.

 

[aaronrkelly]

Tyler, Texas comes to mind.....

I have no idea how many rounds Mark expelled. I dont want to start a discussion about wrong or right.....whats done is done. However, put me in that situations.....facing a thug with an AK47 and body armor......give me all the rounds I can carry, multiple magazines etc.

Taking something like that with a single magazine and 7 rounds would NOT be on my list of things to attempt......and that may have been exactly what happened. Not sure.....

Situations that require a firearm are never ideal, otherwise they wouldnt be happening.......so dont bet on 3, 4 or even 7 rounds being enough.

I hope if I ever need a gun I have twice the amount of ammo that is going to be required......how much is that, I hope never to find out.

 

[Telperion]

I'll take as many as can fit without sticking out the bottom of the grip, thanks.

 

[hso]

But for an average Joe, it seems like you don't really need 15 shots. 10, or even 8 would probably do with your standard mugger or home invader.

Let me ask a question as well, please. What makes you say this? There is no magic one shot stop handgun ammunition. Not even the venerable .45 or the newer 10mm that will stop an attacker with a single hit. That means that you need more than 1 hit on an attacker to have any assurance of stopping the attack. How many "more"? 2 more? Possibly, but there are no guarantees.

So how do you train? Most people's handgun training consists of standing in one spot slowly firing their handgun at a paper target that never moves. They adjust their grip between each shot and they lower the weapon to look at the target to see how they do. If you train like this it's easy to see how 7, 8 or 10 rounds of ammunition in the gun makes sense. The problem is that watching any number of videos of violent crimes being committed shows that the BG isn't standing still at some known distance and they won't give you time to adjust your grip every couple of seconds nor wait for you to check between every shot. They will be trying to harm you or someone else and you had better be shooting fast and hard. If you train to prepare for an armed attacker who won't act like the two of you are on the range you'll go though 5 rounds in less than 1.5 seconds firing at a single target. In just 2 seconds you will have emptied an 8 round 1911 magazine. Let's hope there's not another attacker present because now you've got to reload. If there is another attacker and you've got the presence of mind a 10 round magazine may allow you to stop both before running dry. What if there's a third?

Seems silly to think that you'd be attacked by as many as 3 people intent on doing you grave bodily harm. Except for the fact that a fellow I know had just such a problem occur coming out of a musical performance one evening. 3 young men spotted him and his date coming out of the venue and made a bee line for them cutting them off from their car. When things went beyond the "gimme your wallet" stage and one of them stated to pull a gun he was able to draw his Glock 19 and get off the first round quick hitting the guy low and right. He was able to fire 2 more times moving from the BG's right abdomine across an upward diagonal when the 4th shot went over the BG's left shoulder. He was able to pull the gun back down and fired again into the head. All the while he couldn't hear a thing, but the GF and the lone surviving BG both testified that he was screaming "DON'T DO IT!" over and over again and things unfolded in slow motion. He pulled the gun to the left as he saw the other 2 BGs starting to pull guns of their own. He fired 3 rounds into the upper torso of the BG to his left and also missed a 4th. The second BG had time to fire 1 round from a .38 revolver. No one knows where it went. The 3rd BG was just getting the front sight of a large shiny revolver loose from the front of his pants where he "Mexican carried" the pistol when my acquaintance fired 4 more times. This time he hit the BG twice and missed twice. He had no idea how many times he pulled the trigger or even if the gun worked every time he pulled the trigger, but there were casings for twelve 9mm rounds. He said the gunfight seemed to go on forever and that everything happened in slow motion. The GF said it was over "in a couple of seconds".

Many BGs don't operate alone. Therefore you should train as if you'll have to protect yourself from at least 2 people at very close range. An 8 or 10 round mag may be enough, if you don't miss.

If you're hands are smaller it doesn't matter how large the highest capacity handgun is because it won't fit you. You'll have to find a gun that fits comfortably so that you can point it well and get hits with it. Too large a gun and you can't point it well to get hits with. But wait, I've got smallish hands and I shoot a .45 Para or a BHP 9mm and they fit me just fine. So perhaps it's more a question of finding what fits the individual without setting any other conditions like magazine capacity.

 

[swingset]

I never understand these threads.

If you don't imagine a need for more than 10 rounds, then by god don't buy hi-caps or guns that take them. But, don't wish your limitations on us.

If, like some of us, you imagine a wider variety of scenarios than 3-shots at a single mugger, you want the option of high-capacity.

There's really no debate, until you advocate the banning of things. Use what pleases you, I'll do the same.

 

[BullfrogKen]

DRMMR02,
I understand your premise as one debating the efficacy of a larger caliber round may exceed the need for more, less powerful rounds. Correct?

I'm not sure that's true.


Can we first agree on one premise? Conventional handgun rounds are marginally effective at best. Even that .45 ACP you cite as "more powerful".

Furthermore, the assumption of a violent criminal actor operating alone is very often not the case. Many more scenarios occur as VCA's acting as a team of 2 or more, than as a lone antagonist. Recall the +1 Rule. With that in mind, the decision by a Practitioner to carry a handgun of larger capacity has its merits. The difference between a 9mm and a .45 ACP is negligible.


Should we wish to debate and contrast the difficulty of carrying a handgun designed around the single-column to a staggered or double-column magazine, you might find me more willing to concede your point. Personally, I find the benefits of a slim profile outweigh the advantages of larger capacity. But, this is my choice, made for my lifestyle. It may not be appropriate, and sometimes is not, for others.

 

[got cope?]

XD 45ACP 13+1 standard mag. Who needs high caps?

 

[gunsmith]

having witnessed quite a few gang attacks

I feel unarmed with less then thirty rounds of .40 s&w

I was walking one afternoon when I saw thrty, fourty guys beating on one dude.
seen even bigger mobs on the attack...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0hQuf0287g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxmMdOvEGY0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eV85A2Rs3g

 

[GregGry]

I rather have more then enough then come up short.

 

[MarkDido]

Minor point, and I'll probably get whacked in the head for this, but, LEOs ARE civilians.

I say this because I have been both.

 

[Nail Shooter]

AJAX22 It's a simple case of 'its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it'......

Additionally it should be noted that in many handguns there is no difference in size between a ten round mag and a 15 or 17 round magazine, in this scenario lower capacity is wasted space.

AJAX pretty much nails it. NO reason to carry less in a package that could carry more. I see no reason to be less prepared than LEO in the handgun dept, my life is just as worthy of protection. Regards,

NS

 

[1911 guy]

Guns are kinda like fire extinguishers.

We have them, tote them around on occasion and pray we never need them. On the off chance we do need them, we want the biggest, bestest and mostest.

I choose to carry a single stack 1911, but I also carry two reloads, a pocket folder, a fixed 2" belt knife and a kubotan. If double stacks fit my hands I'd carry one.

 

[Doug S]

I simply do not understand the logic of limiting yourself in regard to ammunition capacity. Do you not trust yourself? Even if people don't realize it consciously, I believe the only reason one would even ask such a question, or consider arbitrarily limiting ammo capacity is because they've been politically indoctrinated. Otherwise, the thought is shear silliness. Do you only fill your car's gasoline tank half full? Do you limit yourself to purchasing only on pair of underwear because technically, you only need 1 pair each day?

If a gun was made to hold 15 or 17 rounds, then load it to hold 15 or 17 rounds. These should be called "regular" capacity magazines, and only politics causes them to be called otherwise. "Oh wait a minute, Mr. Killer, let me download a few rounds because it would be excessive of me to think that I might need a fully loaded firearm to defend mayself against you..." .

 

[Lou629]

I'm not sure of the model number, but some S&W wheelguns, and possibly other brands, offer their own version of 'hi-cap' in a .357 mag., that can load 7 shots instead of the more usual 6. Going by the idea that says loading only 10 rounds in an auto is more than enough, when 15 or more could be carried, would you then load only 4 rounds in a 6-shot revolver, or maybe 5 in the 7-shot model?

 

[buzz_knox]

Wouldn't 1 or 2 more powerful shots be a better trade?

The differences in service pistol calibers only really come into play when FMJ is used. When good hollowpoints are used, the differences are really minimal.

So, the question is whether you'd want 15 or so rounds of effective ammuntion or 8 or so rounds of slightly more effective ammunition? Given the fact that misses are quite common in stressful situations, and the increase in multiple assailant situations, I'd like to have as much of an edge I can get.

My premise is that you will almost never fire more than 3 maybe 4 shots at a mugger or burglar. Who is really gonna empty 15 rds at some petty thug? Wouldn't 1 or 2 more powerful shots be a better trade?

Based on your premise, you really should be using a Guncraft Industries .50 (even more effective than a 1911 with one less round), or a .44 Mag.

 

[armedpolak]

first of all

it's not about what you need or don't need, its about what you can! let freedom ring!

second of all, there are riots, gang rapes, gang initiations (which usually involve more than one person), so if 5 - 6 hommies jump out of a car, come at me or GF, or decide to bring medevil on my punk a** and then run a train through my woman, i will be glad to have 12 + 1 in my P2000 .40 and extra 24 on my belt.

just my $.02

 

[Lonestar]

That is why I got away from revolvers. If 2 or 3 guys break into my house and all I have is a 5 shot .357 snubby I would feel underguned.

 

[El Tejon]

1. No one can tell you what the fight will be (one, two, maybe a dozen threats, wearing armour, in a car, moving, running, ducking, you are running, ducking weaving).

2. No one can tell you what it will take to win the fight.

3. In a fight, people shoot their ammunition, thus have a lot of ammunition.

 

[1911 guy]

Point taken.

To all concerned: Re-read point three of the above post. Many CCW encounters are over when the CCW individual runs out of ammo. Bring lots of it.

 

[M2 Carbine]

It is impossible to be prepared for everything that can happen, but a smart man is well prepared for what he thinks is most likely to happen and he tries to be as prepared as he can be for what could happen.

Everything is a trade off, caliber, gun size, magazine capacity.

You just have to decide what you think will do the job for you in most cases and hopefully have a plan for the unexpected.


I practice shooting at 100 yard with my small carry pistols. Not because I think that there's much of a chance that I'd ever have to make a hundred yard shot with a 3 inch barrel Kimber buy it's a possibility.
For that same reason I would carry as large a capacity magazine as available, not because I'll probably need it, but because I might.

 

[ctdonath]

Wouldn't 1 or 2 more powerful shots be a better trade?

The "trade" isn't equitable.

.45 vs. 9mm vs. .22 vs. ... caliber is all a matter of scale - regardless of what caliber you shoot, you're shooting something. The difference between 9mm and .45 is notable, yet marginal; even a .22LR can kill (and accounts for more dead than any other caliber).

8 vs. 10 vs. 15 vs. 17 vs. ... mag size is all a matter of capacity - when you run out, you're not shooting any more. While you probably won't empty the mag whatever its size, you're still operating under a "brick wall" effect; empty guns are useless.

As an auto mechanic noted: the difference between 2 headlights and 1 headlight is a lot less than the difference between 1 headlight and no headlight.

The value of a bigger bullet is a lot less than the value of having a bullet when you need it.
Considering that "hi-cap" mags (however defined) are only marginally costlier and larger than "lo-cap" mags for most serious carry guns, there is little reason to not prefer the bigger mags.

You don't want to run out of ammo.
You don't want to swap mags if you can help it.

Yes, you can get double-stack .45ACP M1911s. Kinda renders the discussion moot.

Methinks a single .45 round does not have twice the stopping power of a 9mm. Given that, I'd rather have 17+2+1 rounds than 8+1.