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Hi Power Disconnect Removal Legalities

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glockamolee

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Nov 7, 2005
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179
Location
Mich
Can a good attorney prosecute a gun owner for removal of the magazine disconnect? especially after a shooting?

"Members of the Jury, John Doe removed a safety device from his handgun!""

ETC...ETC...

Whats the opinion out there?:confused:
 
I'm no expert . . .

That being said, I don't think it's illegal to remove the parts but I think they would portray you as some gun crazy kook for doing it. They'd try to convince the jury that by removing the parts you were doing everything in your power to be able to shoot someone . ..or some warped logic like that.

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave
 
If you were to shoot someone in self defense, I doubt it would make any difference, it'll be a good shoot or a bad one.

If someone were to get your gun and shoot themselves by accident, you would have a nightmare trying make it not be an issue!
 
A prosecutor can say anything. They are trying to convict you after all.

A lawyer can also defend against it.

The defense for the HP is very easy. Was a magazine in the pistol when it was fired? If so, the device in question is irrelevent to this situation. The device only prevents the firing of the pistol when the magazine has been removed. It is not a safety.

Still waiting for case history for this actually happening on a good shoot.
 
It's been awhile since I tore down a Hi-power, but if memory serves you really can't "remove" the disconnect because of the way the trigger links to the sear via the slide-the magazine pushes the linkage up so it can engage. You would have to implement some other way of keeping the linkage aligned.

I could be wrong, but awhile back a friend of mine wanted to remove the diconnect from his BHP. After examination, we decided there was no feasible way to accomplish said feat.
 
Jim Watson said:
That is the usual hypercautious lawyerwhipped nervousnellie approach, but I have not read of an actual court case where it happened.

Massad Ayoob cites a case where this happens in an aritcle in the Feb 2006(yes the mag says Feb 2006) issue of "Combat Handguns". The article is "8 Mistakes That Can Hang You" or something like that. What happened in short was this. There was an accidental discharge of a Colt Commander 45 that struck a bystander and inflicted a fatal wound. When the police searched the scene they found a Browning Hi-Power 9mm in the defendant's car. The magazine disconnector safety had been removed on the Browning. The attorney used that against him, even though it wasn't the gun in the shooting. The arguement was "that anyone reckless enought to have a defense gun with one of the its safety devices removed, was obviously habitually negligent in the handling of guns." (quote from the article) The defendant managed to get a plea bargain.
 
If it's a good shoot then it probably would not be an issue.I don't think that the gun would ever even be checked to see if it had been removed unless it somehow became crutial to the details of the shooting.
 
IF you don't know that attorneys don't "prosecute" you for doing something that's not illegal, than you don't know the question, let alone the answer. :rolleyes:
 
There was an accidental discharge of a Colt Commander 45 that struck a bystander and inflicted a fatal wound.

Valid, and does answer the user's question. But that was not shooting in self defense, it was an accidental discharge; also didn't directly involve the Hi-Power. I agree with the lawyer statements, though. A 'good' lawyer will convince a jury you breathed out when you should have breathed in.

jmm
 
The problem with disabling a safety is not an issue when you use the gun in a righteous self defense scenario. If it's a good shoot, you had a right to possess the gun where you had it, and there's no law on the books about modifications, you will be fine. The problem comes when there is an accidental / negligent discharge or when someone else (typically a child) gets hold of the gun and manages to shoot himself or another person. It becomes an issue of criminal negligence which is basically a recklessness or total disregard for the consequences of your actions. You will not get much traction showing that most other guns do not have this type of feature because the issue will be not most other guns but your gun, the fact that you disabled the safety, and because of that X person was shot.

In addition to criminal law considerations, another problem with disabling safeties is civil liability. Despite what has been said by one member, the feature in question is a type of safety. When you disable a feature like this and there is an accidental / negligent discharge or someone else (again, typically a child) gets hold of the gun and manages to shoot himself or another person, a plaintiff can easily show negligence. It's simply going to be a matter of if the safety was intact would the shooting have occurred the way it did. -This of course is assuming no supervening criminal act to obtain the pistol. You're not going to get popped because someone stole your gun and accidentally shot his friend.

I know people who have removed the magazine safety to get a better trigger pull and people who leave it intact because of concerns about liability. When Cylinder & Slide disables the safety, they specify that the gun should be used for target shooting, not as a carry gun. The HP does not need to have the magazine safety removed to be a decent carry gun. In fact, it can be a nice feature. A lot of cops who are shot end up getting shot by their own guns. That's because most armed confrontations are close encounters. It's pretty cool to know if someone is about to wrest the pistol away from you, you can drop the magazine and make the gun useless in a bad guy's hands. On the other hand, I can't think of a single time when changing magazines that I have needed to fire the gun's last round from the previous mag before I have inserted the new magazine.
 
I don't have any issues with the triggers on BHPs so I have no need to remove my magazine disconnects.
 
It does give the prosecutor another road to go down in an effort to impeach the judgment of the gun owner in the eyes of an emotional jury.

Life is a risk. Caveat gun owner.

BTW, my BHP mag safety is in tact, but if I ever get around to it, I will remove it. My BHP's trigger is darn good as is, though.
 
Part of the problem is that your calling it a safety.

It is NOT a safety. It is a magazine disconnect used to prevent the firing of the pistol should the magazine be removed.

So long as you have a magazine in the pistol, the part has no impact on the mechanics of the pistol.
 
I have removed the magazine disconnect on my BHP & felt the trigger was improved thereby. I agree with most posters above - if it's a good shoot, it simply doesn't matter.
 
Gunsnrovers said:
Part of the problem is that your calling it a safety.

It is NOT a safety. It is a magazine disconnect used to prevent the firing of the pistol should the magazine be removed.

If playing semantics makes you feel better, you can call it whatever you want. It is considered a passive safety feature by gunsmiths. I know several gunsmiths who absolutely refuse to disable it. Their attitude is if you disable it and someone has an accident the feature would've prevented, you are certainly putting your financial well being at risk, and depending on the circumstances possibly your liberty interest. -When you see Cylinder & Slide is willing to do it with the caveat that removing the magazine disconnect safety is for target guns as opposed to carry guns, you are being provided with a relatively clear picture of the legal landscape. In court, it's a negative.

I understand that you may not like the realities of the situation, but that's what it is. Remember the point of the question was how would this be treated, not how would you wish this was treated. There is a difference and a smart person tries to keep this in mind when making certain decisions.
 
"You members of the jury dont understand....The defendant didnt shoot my client, the plaintiff, the one in the wheelchair, intentionally. NO. He had an accidental discharge while handling his gun, which just happened to strike my client, causing him to become a quadriplegic, permanently. Now my client cant return to his job at the carwash, and requires 24-hr nursing care...."
You fill in the rest.
 
Massad Ayoob cites a case where this happens in an aritcle in the Feb 2006(yes the mag says Feb 2006) issue of "Combat Handguns". The article is "8 Mistakes That Can Hang You" or something like that. What happened in short was this. There was an accidental discharge of a Colt Commander 45 that struck a bystander and inflicted a fatal wound. When the police searched the scene they found a Browning Hi-Power 9mm in the defendant's car. The magazine disconnector safety had been removed on the Browning. The attorney used that against him, even though it wasn't the gun in the shooting. The arguement was "that anyone reckless enought to have a defense gun with one of the its safety devices removed, was obviously habitually negligent in the handling of guns." (quote from the article) The defendant managed to get a plea bargain.
OK.

Call me crazy, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what doomed the defendant in this case was the fact that he had a negligent discharge and killed someone, not the fact that he had removed a disconnect from the gun he didn't use. Was it mentioned at the trial? Yes, I suppose so. Did this do anything to undermine his credibility? That's a lot harder to say. Any loss of credibility due to that kinda pales by comparison to the fact that he, you know, had an oops moment and, you know, actually shot someone.

Mike
 
The problem comes when there is an accidental / negligent discharge or when someone else (typically a child) gets hold of the gun and manages to shoot himself or another person.

So having the magazine safety there trumps handling firearms safely and responsibly? Put another way, if they managed to shoot themselves or someone else but the magazine safety was installed, I've got a get out of jail free card?

I'm trying to envision the situation where I would store a Hi-Power with a live round chambered but no magazine inserted. This does not seem to be a smart thing to do, IMO, with or without a magazine safety. There are so many guns in this world that don't have that as an option that to rely on that mechanism seems foolish. I'm sure an attorney can burn you on it, but seems like he wouldn't have to. If you leave a gun lying around with a live round chambered, especially in the presence of others :eek: you're asking for trouble. Why does an attorney even need to argue the magazine safety point, other than to solidify his own case?

The case noted also did not get a verdict, it was plea bargained. So no telling what a jury would think. The Colt Commander 45 involved doesn't offer a magazine safety, does it? That's unsafe right there, your honor. Why, the defendant probably kept it 'cocked and locked', as they say. Extremely unsafe, like most of the Browning designs. :p

With a Hi-Power, a round has to be chambered, hammer cocked, safety off, trigger pulled before it will fire. It will fire without a magazine if that safety has been removed. How did it get through the first sentence of this paragraph while pointed at something the wielder did not intend to shoot? That's negligence or ignorance of firearms safety (or both), and the magazine safety removal is just more ammunition for the prosecution.

If I leave my unattended car parked and running with the doors open and a child manages to climb in and harm itself or others, whose fault is that? Would it be a case by case basis? The prosecutor could have discovered that you never wear your seatbelt, and use that as evidence that you ignore safety when operating dangerous equipment. But does that really matter? The mistake was in the first sentence.

If this article is correct, and if it's Stephen Camp I'm fairly certain it is, you can fire the Hi-Power even with the magazine safety installed, it's just difficult.

It's pretty cool to know if someone is about to wrest the pistol away from you, you can drop the magazine and make the gun useless in a bad guy's hands.

Does self defense training start lesson one with how to render your weapon useless? I don't think I would remember to drop the magazine if someone assaulting me was close enough to grab my gun, unless I had been trained to.

On the other hand, I can't think of a single time when changing magazines that I have needed to fire the gun's last round from the previous mag before I have inserted the new magazine.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying you never fire the last round in the magazine, so you typically have a live round chambered with or without the magazine? Or that it's just not necessary to fire all rounds in a magazine before switching to a different one? How is that different from any pistol?

The magazine safety on my Hi-Power has been removed. It has improved the trigger pull some, but not the reset. I now have the option of dry firing the pistol without a magazine inserted after clearing the chamber repeatedly, like the rest of my pistols. I feel that's a better habit to be in if I'm going to dry fire something nowadays.:eek:

jmm
 
For those interested in reading about the lack of magazine safeties I refer to:

SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY
APPELLATE DIVISION
A-002527-95T1
HURST v GLOCK, INC. and GLOCK, Ges.m.b.H., and LAWRENCE TOWNSHIP PD, OFFICER BRYCE DOWERS.


Good info.
 
In all of my years of researching this as I heard it on the web, I've never found a case where it was brought up IN COURT.

The thing mentioned by Ayoob never made it to court, btw, if it's the same incident that he's written about before...the prosecutor merely threw that out as something he might bring up. Talking about it and actually bringing it up in court are far different things.

Talking about C&S and other gunsmiths NOT removing the mag disconnect? Of course not, not with talk like this. If you really want to "go there", though, Bill Laughridge told me in personal conversation that his understanding was that a shoot was either a good one or a bad one and that the whole thing about C&S not removing the disconnect was a "just in case" and a CYA thing...NOT something that is a real threat. After all, C&S makes and sells a trigger that removes the magazine disconnect completely and DOES NOT ALLOW it to be replaced. I've had this same C&S trigger installed by other hi-power 'smiths who also don't remove the magazine disconnect with the factory trigger but have no problem with doing this particular modification.

The New Jersey case is interesting. Interesting language, too. It's obvious that neither the court nor the attorneys have much knowledge of firearms. Was it ever actually brought to trial? If so, what was the verdict? I don't see any Glocks with magazine disconnects, so I am assuming that it never went to trial or Glock won. Check this text out (straight from the case cited):

Aishah picked the pistol up, pointed it at Tyrone, and pulled the trigger. A bullet entered Tyrone's head, causing catastrophic injuries. Until that tragic moment, Aishah believed the weapon was unloaded.


So it's ok to point pistols at people's heads and pull the trigger because you don't think the gun is loaded? And the manufacturer should compensate for the ignorance and stupidity of people? Check out my signature line for the quote about fools.

:rolleyes:
 
Stupid Defendant

If I recall the case correctly, defendant was felony stupid.

He actually gave the police permission to search his car which was not a part of the crime scene.... stupid! stupid! stupid!

Seems like there were other squirley issues too....

Bottom line is no evidence exists of removing the interlock per se causing a conviction or even being an issue in a good shooting.

FWIW

Chuck


Phaetos said:
Massad Ayoob cites a case where this happens in an aritcle in the Feb 2006(yes the mag says Feb 2006) issue of "Combat Handguns". The article is "8 Mistakes That Can Hang You" or something like that. What happened in short was this. There was an accidental discharge of a Colt Commander 45 that struck a bystander and inflicted a fatal wound. When the police searched the scene they found a Browning Hi-Power 9mm in the defendant's car. The magazine disconnector safety had been removed on the Browning. The attorney used that against him, even though it wasn't the gun in the shooting. The arguement was "that anyone reckless enought to have a defense gun with one of the its safety devices removed, was obviously habitually negligent in the handling of guns." (quote from the article) The defendant managed to get a plea bargain.
 
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