So did mandating everyone carry car insurance. It effected millions. When driving your car became illegal without insurance people thought about the consequences and then bought insurance. I realize that driving a car is not a recognized right in the Constitution and I'm not trying to equate gun ownership to car driving. I'm simply saying that the idea that a law will effect millions has rarely been enough to stop it being enacted.
"High capacity" mags will be banned across the USA.
- Thread starter GiorgioG
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So did mandating everyone carry car insurance. It effected millions. When driving your car became illegal without insurance people thought about the consequences and then bought insurance. I realize that driving a car is not a recognized right in the Constitution and I'm not trying to equate gun ownership to car driving. I'm simply saying that the idea that a law will effect millions has rarely been enough to stop it being enacted.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
That is not AT ALL an accurate representation of what happened in 1986. The matter has been discussed here many times.
Hughes introduced his amendment at the last minute and it could have "poison pilled" the whole FOPA (which was VERY positive for gun owners otherwise). The NRA made the calculated but very tough choice to encourage Reagan to go ahead and sign it anyway in order to win the very beneficial improvements that the FOPA would bring to ALL gun owners. At the time it was believed that Hughes' amendment would be easily and quickly struck down in the courts and it has been a continual thorn in all our sides that that gamble did not pay off.
Would we be better without the FOPA but with the MG registry still open? That's a very tough thing to answer, even in hindsight. It was the choice on the table at the time and in that moment way back in '86, it seemed like the right one.
To say the NRA didn't give a darn is ignorant of the facts and needlessly spiteful toward an (THE?) organization that works very hard and very effectively for the 2nd Amendment.
FIVETWOSEVEN
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The NRA and the American people support the ownership of AR 15s now far more then hey did with machine guns in the 80s.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Also a very true statement!
We make the mistake eternally and universally of judging the actions of our predecessors by the standards of what is known, believed, understood, and appreciated by the people of today. The whole "gun culture" is vastly and maybe even fundamentally different today than it was 27 years ago. The closing of the registry (which, again, was considered an easily defeat-able temporary loss) would affect the very few gun owners interested in machine guns back then and benefit millions of others.
Now, with the gun culture vastly deepened and changed -- especially in the "tactical" areas -- many tens or hundreds of thousands of gun owners feel directly hurt by the registry closure and tend to have no idea what the benefits of FOPA even are. So they just say the NRA threw our rights away...
AlexanderA
Member
The title of the thread is that hi-cap mags "will" be banned nationwide, as if this was a foregone conclusion. Then the author of the OP goes on to plead that everyone contact their representatives. Why bother, if the ban is a foregone conclusion?
The fact is, nothing is a foregone conclusion. Defeatism is our worst enemy.
The fact is, nothing is a foregone conclusion. Defeatism is our worst enemy.
Good grief, men, pick up your chins a little.
Wandering around the internet howling "The government is going to ban my {whatever}".... "The government is going to come take my guns"...
Walk like men. Talk like men.
STAND UP FOR YOURSELF.
Instead of whining about what they MIGHT do, go out and DO something about it.
If they, at a future date, DO ban your stuff, fight them in court. Rally against them. Meet people at those rallies of like mind.
If it comes down to confiscation, at the very least you'll have new like-minded friends for what comes next.
Wandering around the internet howling "The government is going to ban my {whatever}".... "The government is going to come take my guns"...
Walk like men. Talk like men.
STAND UP FOR YOURSELF.
Instead of whining about what they MIGHT do, go out and DO something about it.
If they, at a future date, DO ban your stuff, fight them in court. Rally against them. Meet people at those rallies of like mind.
If it comes down to confiscation, at the very least you'll have new like-minded friends for what comes next.
Agreed. At least the men are being separated from the boys.
Those of us who don't believe we've already lost this thing should be contacting our legislators and using social media to counter the anti-gun propaganda. Thanks to the Internet, the playing field is much more level than it was in 1993, and an individual really can make a difference.
Your lucky to get a timely response here in Chicago. 5 minutes are a long time when there is a immediate threat.
It ultimately boils down to the police are a reactive force that come in after something has already happened. For this purpose the police will never be adequate to protect the public on the basis of they can't.
GiorgioG
Member
This is what changed my wife's mind about guns this past weekend. We live in a "really nice neighborhood" suburb of Buffalo, NY. There's a big county park right behind our house that lots of people cross-country ski / walk through past our tree line.
Some idiot with a big dog walked through the trees and into our backyard, walking around to the front and then proceeded to ring the doorbell many many times, yelling and finally trying to open the front door. I was 2 minutes away at most when she called (she should have called 911 first, but that won't happen again.)
The point is in the 2 minutes it took for me to get home, lots of bad things could have happened. Luckily nothing happend, the guy walked back into the park (again through our yard), but obviously my wife was terrified for herself and the kids. I walked around back and found his tracks in the snow, but no signs of him. Well now my wife who's been deathly afraid of firearms suddenly wants to learn to use one because she learned firsthand that when seconds count...you know the rest
I think that a magazine ban and possibly an "assault weapon" ban might *be* a foregone conclusion. That's my "take" on the direction I'm seeing in politics at the moment. I'm always willing to be pleasantly surprised though.
Just because I view myself as being a--self described--"realist" about where I think the direction of the country is heading in the Power Centers (media, Federal govt, some state governors and state Houses) does not mean that I think we shouldn't fight.
But...I'm from Mississippi. So yes, pessimism is rampant here on most issues (we can be a sour and contentious lot)and we're use to fighting for lost causes. Some fights you fight even if you think you are going to lose.
Edit: So if they "carry the field" today, it doesn't mean its over.
Just because I view myself as being a--self described--"realist" about where I think the direction of the country is heading in the Power Centers (media, Federal govt, some state governors and state Houses) does not mean that I think we shouldn't fight.
But...I'm from Mississippi.
So yes, pessimism is rampant here on most issues (we can be a sour and contentious lot)and we're use to fighting for lost causes. Some fights you fight even if you think you are going to lose.Edit: So if they "carry the field" today, it doesn't mean its over.
Cosmoline
Member
I agree we should all contact our reps, but the unsupported claims are just that--unsupported. Unless you have a link to specific legislation being proposed, knock it off please. Otherwise you're just rumor mongering and not being helpful.
Are you a remote viewer or something? Who is even proposing this apart from Piers Morgan?
Are you a remote viewer or something? Who is even proposing this apart from Piers Morgan?
SilentStalker
Member
Ok, so what can we do to counteract this? It seems writing congress is not helping at all. I had hopes yesterday but not I am not so sure.
ljnowell
Member
nathan said:
It sure did last time.
All the gun owners crying for revolution must not remember last time. When it was time tio put up or shut up, everyone shut up. Just like they will this time.
Not being helpful in what way? I think discussion on issues and examining multiple viewpoints is a good thing. If not everyone is in lockstep, or thinks slightly differently than ourselves, or has an observation that could relate, why not share it? I've already learned a couple of things about the limits of executive orders from discussions that might have otherwise been deemed as "not helpful". I believed something in error that would not have been clarified had that discussion not been "approved". 1st amendment--the free expression of opinion and information, even if erroneous (or perceived as such by other people) may lead to a further understanding of a situation. Or be revealed is irrelevant over time. Labeling something as irrelevant BEFORE discussion--that's how you get nastily surprised.
GiorgioG
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
What? There's not even a bill proposed yet, or even WRITTEN yet, so there's nothing for your congressfolks to vote on. Short of your own Senator or Representative coming out with his or her own press conference to say they'll oppose such a bill, there's nothing they even COULD do yet, so what are you basing your idea that writing is "not helping at all" upon?
Call, write, repeat! They aren't looking to be swayed by that one golden, irrefutable argument only you can provide. They're looking for numbers. X number of calls they figure represents X,XXX of their constituents. X number of letters sent equals XX,XXX of their folks back home. Make yourself heard and when (and if) the time ever comes for them to vote, then you can decide what a difference your efforts might have made.
bsheets20061
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"ljnowell"
the proposed fienstien bill this time is a very improvised very different version of the last, the attitude of the people In my opinion is different as well. I don't feel people would just roll over a forget about if the proposed legislation were to pass this time. at least I hope we the people would not.
the proposed fienstien bill this time is a very improvised very different version of the last, the attitude of the people In my opinion is different as well. I don't feel people would just roll over a forget about if the proposed legislation were to pass this time. at least I hope we the people would not.
I have been giving serious thought to emailing representatives outside my state. My own state is a "lock" on opposition to gun control. But you make a good point about it being a numbers game, especially in places where the politico runs a close margin on his support.
If this is the only place you are venting, then please use your time where it does the most good . You need to have contacted all officials state and federal, before debating it here. This is a great place to talk about guns and gun related issues, but only if you already did your part. I would think that most of us have not just signed online petitions posted here, but actually wrote letters and faxes to your elected officials several times. That is the only thing that "may" soften the blow we are about to get.
Let's face it, most of us agree on the issues, so "preaching to the choir" is not really helping the cause.
If you haven't posted on your facebook, twitter, or whatever social media you use, "if any", then it really does no good to keep throwing stuff up here that we already know and support . All need to focus on the jackasses in Washington who have no clue what a magazine even is, and probablly only saw and heard what they were shown.
We need to educate them on semi vs full auto, mags,clips and the rediculous notions that this is somehow going to magically help in any way.
No offense to the hundreds of guys who have been carrying the ball. In the time it took to write this , I could have reached a few congressmen.
Point out the mental health and unemployment problems and the social climate that is hitting the economy, the failed justice system, all which lead us to where we are now.
Let's face it, most of us agree on the issues, so "preaching to the choir" is not really helping the cause.
If you haven't posted on your facebook, twitter, or whatever social media you use, "if any", then it really does no good to keep throwing stuff up here that we already know and support . All need to focus on the jackasses in Washington who have no clue what a magazine even is, and probablly only saw and heard what they were shown.
We need to educate them on semi vs full auto, mags,clips and the rediculous notions that this is somehow going to magically help in any way.
No offense to the hundreds of guys who have been carrying the ball. In the time it took to write this , I could have reached a few congressmen.
Point out the mental health and unemployment problems and the social climate that is hitting the economy, the failed justice system, all which lead us to where we are now.
Deanimator
Member
Perhaps in some "Fringe"-like alternate universe.
Certainly not in the real world.
the main problem that is causing the talks for bans now is mental health and mass shootings becoming like 400% more prevalent in the past decade.
If they actually did go ahead and lock up every violent felon (like they should), then yes: crime would plummet.
But, none of that would fix the instant-celeb status that can be acquired by a deranged narcissist the moment his friend count on facebook falls below an unacceptable minimum.
Can't find an assault rifle or two with a few 30-rounders? Fine. three times as many ten-rounders work.
Can't find those weapons at all? Fine. Four handguns and mags.
Can't get a few Glocks? Fine. Six revolvers and a few moonclips.
Takes forever to get guns in a significant speed of time? Fine. get one, get good with it, choose another creative gun-free zone. Maybe a Daycare center for toddlers and infants next.
Can't get guns at all? Well, they can't background check household chemicals that make bombs or sharp kitchen knives...
Seriously, the problem is mental health, and instead of simply monitoring and qualifying any juvenile records to carry over to adulthood (so it would show up on a background check), or maybe just increasing the age of ownership for some guns (even though, yes, the shooter stole his guns) so an 18-year-old fresh out of a setting as immature as high school can't instantly jump into gun ownership while taking their emotional stuntedness with them, etc. they go after guns because it's easy and cheap. No new record-keeping, no judicial backup, no potential to violate freedoms of speech and expression (apparently the only right we are still privileged enough to have without question - maybe because they know they can mace you and call you a rioter when you speak your mind for more than five minutes?), and more importantly: no political incorrectness.
Not even NY can stop the real problem from getting out, no matter how draconian their laws get.
It's really upsetting that every proposal seems to completely ignore the real problem. Why is that?
If they actually did go ahead and lock up every violent felon (like they should), then yes: crime would plummet.
But, none of that would fix the instant-celeb status that can be acquired by a deranged narcissist the moment his friend count on facebook falls below an unacceptable minimum.
Can't find an assault rifle or two with a few 30-rounders? Fine. three times as many ten-rounders work.
Can't find those weapons at all? Fine. Four handguns and mags.
Can't get a few Glocks? Fine. Six revolvers and a few moonclips.
Takes forever to get guns in a significant speed of time? Fine. get one, get good with it, choose another creative gun-free zone. Maybe a Daycare center for toddlers and infants next.
Can't get guns at all? Well, they can't background check household chemicals that make bombs or sharp kitchen knives...
Seriously, the problem is mental health, and instead of simply monitoring and qualifying any juvenile records to carry over to adulthood (so it would show up on a background check), or maybe just increasing the age of ownership for some guns (even though, yes, the shooter stole his guns) so an 18-year-old fresh out of a setting as immature as high school can't instantly jump into gun ownership while taking their emotional stuntedness with them, etc. they go after guns because it's easy and cheap. No new record-keeping, no judicial backup, no potential to violate freedoms of speech and expression (apparently the only right we are still privileged enough to have without question - maybe because they know they can mace you and call you a rioter when you speak your mind for more than five minutes?), and more importantly: no political incorrectness.
Not even NY can stop the real problem from getting out, no matter how draconian their laws get.
It's really upsetting that every proposal seems to completely ignore the real problem. Why is that?
Cosmoline
Member
There's a big difference between saying Senator x is proposing legislation Y and here's the link to the details and announcing ALL YOUR GUNS ARE BELONG TO OBAMA! RUN FOR THE HILLS! ARGHHHH! MA HAIR'S ON FIRE!
The first is helpful and will make our letters sound better informed. The second is just fear mongering nonsense and makes us sound like loons.
Not true at all. It absolutely makes a difference, especially real letters not just emails. I'm holding off till Tuesday when the Biden group makes its proposals, then I will go point-by-point through them and get those letters off to reps. We all need to do this.
If high capacity mags were to be banned in the US, and if those bans were based along "mental health" lines, then I would think one possible argument to be used in opposition would be the racial profiling that would result. Why do I say that? Well, quite simply a disproportionate number of minorities receive the oft cited "crazy check". By linking mental health and gun ownership it could be argued that you are disarming a minority class...which many states would find objectionable to their citizens. Being from Mississippi I know a lot of our African American residents would not like to be told they are going to be disarmed while "sane" white people were allowed to keep their guns. Not happy at all.
And yes, I'm proposing a method of "divide and conquer" among the base of support in the Democratic Party by pointing out how a hastily contrived idea put forth by the current administration could impact their supporters in the future. I know...rumor mongering again.
And yes, I'm proposing a method of "divide and conquer" among the base of support in the Democratic Party by pointing out how a hastily contrived idea put forth by the current administration could impact their supporters in the future. I know...rumor mongering again.
GiorgioG
Member
"I've never quite heard as much talk about the need to do something about high capacity magazines, as I've heard spontaneously from every group that we've met with so far," Biden argued.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57563314/biden-gun-violence-proposals-to-obama-by-tuesday/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57563314/biden-gun-violence-proposals-to-obama-by-tuesday/
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