High-powered handgun loads for self defense

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dr_2_B

Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2006
Messages
1,850
Location
midwest
I'm hoping for an intelligent discussion on the issue of high-powered handguns for self-defense.

Here's my premise: It's been well established that handguns are under-powered as anti personnel weapons. If one were to be forced to knowingly go into harm's way, he would want to carry a long gun because rifles and carbines have much greater power and they literally do drop people in their tracks.

Now that said, we generally look at very high-powered handguns (e.g. 44 magnum, etc) is being over-powered for self-defense purposes.

These two arguments seems to contradict one another. So in your opinion, what gives?
 
A large, heavy handgun cartridge requires a large heavy handgun to shoot it in. Yes, I know this is a fictional example, but Dirty Harry was just a movie. Almost nobody actually carries a 6½-inch large-frame revolver. Most of the 10mm auto pistols are pretty large and heavy as well. The recoil and blast from heavy handgun cartridges is a problem, not only in making fast, well-placed follow-up shots, but sometimes even placing the first shot. Over-penetration can be a problem with heavy loads. I don't buy totally into this "energy dump" business, but for safety of bystanders, preservation of evidence, etc., it is advantageous to have the bullet stay in the body. Finally, in terms of muzzle energy, even "low-powered" rifle cartridges like the M1 Carbine and .223 still surpass most handgun cartridges. Personally, I think you reach a point of diminishing returns at about the .45 Auto, and I prefer 9mm Luger.
 
If it were just up to power, a .50 cal hand gun is the way to go. They are a bit tough to actually carry especially for concealment. Then there is the issue of actually firing the thing, not everyone is capable of accurately shooting one of these 'cannons'. I guess everything is a compromise. Soldiers are given hand guns as a back up, emergency weapon. Yes, we ALL would like the stopping power of a .50 or a .44 magnum, at the same time, having more opportunities, (ammo in the gun), is something we all want. An AK47 shoots a more powerful round than an M4. The soldier carrying an M4 can carry nearly twice the rounds, (weight wise). A 7.62 round isn't twice as powerful as an 5.56. Without getting into the 45 vs 9mm argument, IMO, a 45 is a better round than a 9mm. Two hand guns of the same size, GENERALLY, the 9mm will carry twice as many rounds as a 45. IMO, the 45 isn't twice as good. If I could have a concealable hand gun that carries as many rounds as a 9mm and had the stopping power of a .44 magnum AND I could shoot it accurately....
 
my Sig 239 .40 with hot 165 grain loads (ie Ranger T series) is about all my hand can stand in rapid fire. It is nastier than 230 grain Ranger in a Colt Lightweight Commander .45. It is my personal compact semi auto fighting pistol limit.I would say therefore that around 500 ft pounds energy in a less than two pound pistol is about it to be effectively used in a gun fight. Col. Cooper often said as much.Up the weight another pound and .50s might be useful.
 
That was a lot of gun Dirty Harry packed on screen, but I believe he admitted to a reporter once that it was only stoked with .44 Specials. :D
 
When it comes to getting more and more energy into a target (forget "energy dump" notions that quantize this; I'm simply talking about how disrupting more 'stuff' than a weaker bullet will require more power to work with) going heavier is an extremely inefficient route

1) Recoil mounts exponentially, to the point the gun is useless after one round
2) Even small diameter rounds will fully penetrate, so the only gains are to the diameter of the wound which are not commensurate with the increase in recoil & energy required to obtain them
3) Bigger bullet makes everything else about the gun bigger & expensive

The one major pro is that a larger bullet can receive more force from pressure than a smaller bullet; all else being equal, it speeds up faster, and drops chamber pressures more quickly (all else is rarely equal though, since lead is heavy)

Now, the reason rifle rounds universally blow handgun cartridges away is due to a single commonality; velocity. That's the key. Get that pill --any pill-- north of 2000fps, and you start getting an exponential increase in tissue damage beyond the diameter of the round, basically because the force of the bullet pushing stuff out of its way is so powerful that cellular bonds tear. The target basically "splashes" upon impact.

Faster is better, but the trick is how to get there. Do it with a tiny bullet, and you have to make the thing very dense or hard for it to get deep enough before running out of steam or breaking apart, and that lands you in jail for making 'armor piercing bullets.' If you go much larger than 'tiny,' you will find your cartridges have to be really short & stubby to still fit in a gripped magazine well suitable for ordinary mortals, and won't have room for enough powder to push the pill down the giant bore. This can be mitigated a good deal with bottle-neck cases, which shift the equation to the opposite extreme, where you have more powder than needed to drive the bullet, and huge flash is the result.

Things that will likely be common for any high-velocity round;
-Sophisticated bullet design (multi-core, compromised tip/jacket, unstable)
-High pressure loadings

Those two things basically force the designer into a solution very much like the 5.7x28. Very high quality (expensive) ammo, and very clever (expensive) firearm actions. I think the one thing FNH could/should have done was to either tell NATO to shove their high capacity requirement and go with a 9mm case-head based round (like Tokarev, 30 Luger, or 22TCM), or split the difference and use a 32acp/30 Carbine case head. Stronger brass would be able to handle the high pressures with less wear, and the bolts/actions required would have more commonality & applicability to existing cartridges.

I think for defense applications you'd need to try to define and set your variables as a starting point;
-Velocity (I think 2500fps would be an excellent target; +3k is impossible at present for a handgun length barrel, at any pressure)
-Penetration Depth (mostly a function of bullet weight, speed being a constant)
-Barrier Effectiveness (likely limited by legal bullet construction)
-Max Allowable Recoil (a function of handgun & bullet weights)
-Max Effective Range (speed alone guarantees +100yd effectiveness)
-Max Handgun Weight (set by many variables after handgun size)
-Max Handgun Size (sets OAL of cartridge and barrel length)
-Min Ammo Capacity (very crudely sets the case head diameter)
-Bullet Weight (mostly a function of bullet diameter, unless odd shape specified)
-Bullet Diameter (set by barrel length & powder charge)

What I suspect we will find, is that FNH engineers were pretty close to the sweet spot, but that more compatible components than the 5.7x28 uses wouldn't have changed the results much (well, other than allowing competitors to produce ammo more easily ;))

-A large size handgun allows you to lengthen the bore for a larger powder charge
-High capacity forces you to use a small diameter case head
-High velocity requires high pressures and light bullets
-Large powder charge requires necked cases to keep length down
-Light weight is achieved by small ammo and action parts

I've heard it would cause problems for function, but if FNH made a "G26'ed" version of the five-seven with a cropped magwell (12-15rnds instead of 20) with less 'dead space' around the magazine well and even a marginally shortened barrel, they'd have a very competitive gun on their hands, simply because it would weigh so little and be the same size as other options. If they could make an even smaller single stack snubby that still functioned properly and got halfway decent ballistic figures, they could catapult the round to prominence and put a stake in the 380/32 mouse gun market.

TCB
 
Here's my premise: It's been well established that handguns are under-powered as anti personnel weapons. If one were to be forced to knowingly go into harm's way, he would want to carry a long gun because rifles and carbines have much greater power and they literally do drop people in their tracks.
One: any bullet that can pass clean through a human has enough power kill and two: shot placement is more important than high power and three:...
Now that said, we generally look at very high-powered handguns (e.g. 44 magnum, etc) is being over-powered for self-defense purposes.
These two arguments seems to contradict one another. So in your opinion, what gives?
A 44 magnum can go through 3 human beings lined up and if hit just right so over penetration is a concern.

Logic dictates that having too much can have worse effects on something other than the target (IE what lies beyond). Simple answer is accuracy over power, that's why we practice and more power is not needed.

One perfect example would be the famous FBI shootout in 1986 which caused a Kneejerk reaction. The result was the birth of two more pistol calibers. One the 10mm and two the child of the 10mm the 40 cal. S&W. Reason? Simple the FBI felt it needed more powerful handguns and more rounds than a revolver. I can't argue the more rounds idea but the power is another story as far as hand guns go.

Reference FBI shootout (must read) :http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

In the end the 10mm on the 1911 platform was a mule with a kick and the 40 had good penetration in test. The 40 was a scaled down version of the 10mm and it was adopted....until recently when the FBI went back to a 9mm. Go figure!
 
The .41 Magnum came out in '61. Elmer Keith wanted a 200 gr. SWC @
1,000 FPS for a Duty load for LEOs. The fixed sight Model 58 is like an
M&P on Steroids. Neitherr caught on... the .41 Mag jacketed loads
170 gr. & 210 gr. are in the 1500 fps range and plenty of blast & recoil

bottle neck cartridges.... how'd that work for .400 CorBon ??

R-
 
bottle neck cartridges.... how'd that work for .400 CorBon ??
Worked fine for Mauser, Tokarev, Luger, SIG, and FNH...and basically all rifle cartridges :rolleyes:

TCB
 
Big or big enough? .....

The topic of handgun rounds and magnum type loads can often become heated on gun forums. :uhoh:

My state refuses armed security officers from carrying magnum type DA revolvers. :uhoh:
You can by state statue use a .357magnum but it must only have factory made .38spl ammunition. No hand loads or reloads(for licensed security work).
In 2015 I feel the issue of handgun caliber over-penetration is over rated in some circles but it's a significant issue none the less.
Some legal use of force experts & gun-training cadre like Massad Ayoob say magnum revolvers or large caliber handguns are not smart for duty use or CCW because it may be hard to fire multiple rounds or get the best marksmanship under stress. :uhoh:
A few 6 gunners tote a .44magnum with the .44spl or the .45LC in a snub revolver. This to me could do fine with good JHPs or "frangible" type ammunition. The DPX, Buffalo Bore, MagSafe, Glaser Safety Slug, etc.
In 2015 the chance of a defense round exiting or not working properly in a violent felon seems less likely.
Many people in the USA are bigger, heavy and thicker. :uhoh:
I saw a media report over the weekend about a senior woman(avg size) who was shot a documented 14 times :eek: . She lived and is now suing the apt complex for poor security where she lived. The victim's daughter was also shot, but hit in the skull & died on scene. The police said the unknown subject used a 9x19mm firearm.
 
I've been following Liberty Civil Defense ammo. It uses light loads at pressure that achieves nearly 2000 fps and fragments in the target. I'm not sure independent tests have been done but their video seems convincing. I plan to test it in my PM45.
 
I prefer larger calibers as well. I don't care what fackler or the fbi's jello says about 9mm and 10mm being equal. If I can choose more power, then I'm going to use more power. The only time I drop to .380 or 9mm is in mouse guns with heavy recoil, or guns meant for people with tiny hands (some women).

Still, I don't think a proper 10mm hollowpoint is going to overpentrate much worse than .40 or 9mm +p. If it zips clean through the bad guy, then the other rounds likely would have as well. If overpen is a huge issue with your scenario, then choose a .45ACP hollowpoint. .45 expands up to the size of a parachute and stops abruptly. Or the weaker 5.7x28mm round. That also bleeds off energy quick in jello.

I may be switching to a Glock 40 MOS for home defense. Not so much for the caliber, but more for the red dot. Although, if I'm going to spec a pistol out for just home use, it's going to be a fullsize big pistol. Night sights are worthless to me. Especially if I don't have my contacts in. But apparently, I still qualify acceptably in a dark shoot house without my contacts or glasses on, as long as I use an RDS.

My CCW will still be a 1911 or Glock 23. Because I don't go out without my contacts in.
 
Almost nobody actually carries a 6½-inch large-frame revolver.

I have an 8 3/8" revolver I carry sometimes. It's a 629 which is a stainless version of Dirty Harry's pistol. I carry it when I go to do some work on my farm because the place is overrun with bears. My trifling cousin is the only person living on the farm and he isn't about to keep the bears in fear of humans. He's scared of his own shadow. I don't get to the farm often these days but when I go have that .44 magnum slung over my shoulder in a tanker holster. It draws fast from that holster and it will give a black bear a serious headache. I didn't really pick that length as much it just sorta came to me. I bought it from my brother when he needed money to buy a new lawnmower. I almost traded it off but then the bears started showing up. For example right by our graveyard there's a place where the bears bed down. There must be at least 5 or 6 bears sleeping there. And when I go out to mow the grass I don't want to be trying to outrun a bear on my John Deere.

That said I carry a .40 for SD purposes. I carried a .45 for many years but I believe a .40 has advantages. The bullets are almost as heavy as .45 bullets and they travel much faster. And my XDm doesn't kick at all firing those rounds. Apparently others have recoil problems with their .40's but mine works smooth and quick. No barrel flip and no felt recoil at all.
 
As Jeff Cooper wrote, "use the most powerful handgun you can control (and carry)."

As long as it's a reasonable size and weight weapon you can carry then inside that find the most powerful one that you can shoot well.

If you can only control a 9mm, use it. If you can control a .44 magnum, use it.

I use a Glock 26 with Winchester +p+ 127 gr. T series JHPs cause that particular package I can conceal, carry, and shoot one handed very well. If I pack more power into it (say .357 Sig or .40 S&W) I have a hard time shooting fast and accurately one handed.

To me, being able to shoot it one handed is important. Others it may not be so. But inside your criteria as to what size weapon and your technique, find the most powerful handgun.

Deaf
 
When weather and clothing permit, my favorite carry gun is a Redhawk with a 5 inch barrel in 44 Remington Magnum. I believe that one bullet well placed from a 44 Remington Magnum could be more effective than several from a 9mm Parabellum but that is what I also carry at times.

I suspect the reason the FBI and other police departments have gone back to the 9mm Parabellum is because of women on the force and the not so rare officer who isn't that much into guns and only practices when required. Some women, at least in the initial part of police training, can't even chamber a round in the semi auto they'll be issued.

By the way, I"m sick of hearing what Elmer Keith and Jeff Cooper said.
 
Here's my premise: It's been well established that handguns are under-powered as anti personnel weapons.

Well not really as you pointed out with your second point there are better options like a rifle but we can't always carry a rifle with us. Now the rounds themselves from handguns are plenty powerful enough to stop people. A S&W 500 magnum to the brain or a .22LR still gets the job done, you can't be more dead but you can make more of a mess I suppose.

If one were to be forced to knowingly go into harm's way, he would want to carry a long gun because rifles and carbines have much greater power and they literally do drop people in their tracks.

Any long gun is going to be better with any round because it has more velocity, higher capacity, and easier to shoot accurately. But on the other hand it's also going to have more penetration which would make it worse for over-penetration friendly fire.

No gun is guaranteed no drop someone in there tracks, a 50BMG to the heart still is not a 100% instant drop. In shooting sometimes people can still move/fight for 0-8secs after there heart stops beating and if you do some looking on youtube you'll find some 50BMG hunts where it's a good placed shot and the animal still runs aways before dropping.

Now that said, we generally look at very high-powered handguns (e.g. 44 magnum, etc) is being over-powered for self-defense purposes.

Just like the rifle you can't have it all more power is going to lead to more penetration.

These two arguments seems to contradict one another. So in your opinion, what gives?

I'd say worry less about the caliber and more about practicing and shot placement than anything else.
 
+1. Make mine .45ACP. (Though I do have an S&W snub.)

I suspect the reason the FBI and other police departments have gone back to the 9mm Parabellum is because of women on the force and the not so rare officer who isn't that much into guns and only practices when required. Some women, at least in the initial part of police training, can't even chamber a round in the semi auto they'll be issued.

Because they haven't been trained how to do it correctly, not because of lack of strength to do so. Having trained women how to shoot in the Army, and for 4-H, I find they are better students and more often become better shooters, because their ego doesn't get in the way of learning.
 
Law Enforcement mainly uses .40 Cal., they should know. I would recommend Hornady Critical Defense or Critical Duty rounds.
Plus, multiply the round by 3, which would likely be min. shots fired (IMO) under life or death conditions
 
Here's my premise: It's been well established that handguns are under-powered as anti personnel weapons...

Now that said, we generally look at very high-powered handguns (e.g. 44 magnum, etc) is being over-powered for self-defense purposes.

Handguns are not very good at being offensive weapons. No army takes the battlefield primarily armed with pistols. They lack both the range and the power of rifles.

But handguns are not primarily offensive weapons, they are defensive weapons. They are back up to a long gun. If the long gun is down the pistol will save one's life.

In the role of defensive weapon the handgun is very good at it's job and not underpowered. This is why so many of them are sold and they are so popular. They have to be small and light enough to be portable. In defensive applications the intent of the handgun is not for killing but for stopping the threat or allowing the threatened person to get away from the threat. The rifle is for killing. As is the bazooka and the hand grenade. The pistol is to prevent being killed.

To be effective in this job the defensive pistol has to be light enough to be used by most shooters. It has to be of a caliber that is mated to the gun and to the job. The shooter has to be able to shoot the gun rapidly and accurately. For this reason most armies and police forces have chosen semi auto pistols in rounds from .380 to 45acp as their choices for arming large numbers of men and women. The guns are compact and the rounds capable of being shot quickly and accurately after training.

The old dictum of choosing a gun and caliber that you can shoot well with the most powerful round that you can handle well and mate it to the task works. If it's 9mm, good if it's 10mm or a 45acp, good as well.

Overpenetration is not as much of a problem as missing.

It does no good to choose a caliber and gun that a person cannot shoot accurately.

Handguns for hunting are a different matter.

tipoc
 
When it comes to stopping "HUMAN" attackers the 125 gr 357 mag, 124 gr 9mm +P, most any 45 ACP HP ammo as well as 40 S&W and probably a few others work just about as well as can be expected. Not enough difference between any of the above to matter, they all have proven to work.

It's been well established that handguns are under-powered as anti personnel weapons.

I'd challenge that. All of the above loads have proven to be effective right around 90% of the time if the shot is in the right spot. A rifle increases effective range significantly as well as precision at any range.

Moving up to 44 mag just doesn't seem to get the job done any better than any of the others. At least on humans, on larger animals it might matter.

You are going to find situations where someone just refuses to die and takes multiple hits. You find that in the military with full size battle rifles just as with handgun rounds. Has to do with the mental state of the person being shot. There are examples of soldiers being hit multiple times with 30 caliber bullets and continuing to fight for extended periods.
 
Has anyone said "overpenetration in a crowded environment" yet? If you shoot a person with a full power large bore magnum, that bullet probably won't stop in the target. Is ten year old Milissa behind it, cowering in a corner with her terrified mom?
 
I like the 10mm I shoot it a lot and I'm very comfortable with it. I load 180gr. Hornady xtps for edc. I've thought about trying some of the frangible loads to combat the over penetration issue but I don't know if I trust them through heavy clothing and such. It's hard to find the perfect load and take into account all the what ifs.
 
sorry but in a Compact pistol like a Glock 23 or a Shield or my Sig 239 the .40' amount of energy is my upper limit of control in training conditions. The 165 grain loads I use do over 1050fps in those short barrel guns I own and shot over chrono graph and they break 1100fps in the full size guns. That is around 500 ft ponds of energy in the English system and a good full on .357 4" barrel load is another 50 foot pounds and a handful in sub 2 pound guns ! So I have settled on a Shield .40 or the Sig 239 for conceal carry but if I felt safe with it concealed my Glock 23 (good to go for open carry tho ! ) for defense on animals up to about 300 pounds and switch to.44mag for larger animals .
In .44 magnum you can go alot more energy in a 40 oz plus pistol and still place accurate fire. 240 grains at 1150 fps out of my 40 oz 4" Mountain Gun is also about it for me for practical defense and I prefer the extra 200 fps the 6.5" 629 gets in bear country as the extra weight allows good work to be done to 50 yards.
 
I've been following Liberty Civil Defense ammo. It uses light loads at pressure that achieves nearly 2000 fps and fragments in the target. I'm not sure independent tests have been done but their video seems convincing. I plan to test it in my PM45.
I purchased a box of Civil Defense .45acp(20 rounds) about 4mo for my Glock 21 .45acp gen 04. The ballistics look good. It works okay in my big Glock, ;) .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top