HIgher education frustration...

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oobray

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I suppose this is relevant because it has to do with .gov and constitutionality...



Anyway, I am very frustrated becasue today I was in class (Administration of Criminal Justice Agencies) and the instructor (who was formerly an Air Force MP, sworn to uphold the constitution) was talking about civil and criminal liabilities that a LEO could face due to depriving someone of their constitutional rights.

He CONTINUALLY made this statement

A police officer can be held liable if he/she knowingly deprives someone of a right given by the federal government...

Does anyone see a proble with this statement?

I confronted him after class and this is what I said...

I am coming to you light heartedly, I'm not made this is just a pet peave of mine. When you made your statement deprives someone of a right GIVEN by the federal government this is incorrect becasue the framers didn't not believe that the bill of rights was GIVING the citizens rights, it was merely recognizing and making a vow of the government to protect those rights given to us by God.

He then proceeded to give me some argument about how other countries would not agree, and he acted very upset that I would say such a thing...

Anyway, I'm glad I'm graduating in 2 months, I don't know how much longer I can stand the socialist, liberal environment of higher education.
 
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As part of your education, you are learning that many people (even those in "authority") have no critical thinking skills or knowledge of history.

Take it in stride, it gets "better" after you graduate. :uhoh:
 
Shh... what other countries do and think is relevant. ;)

Seriously it saddens me to think that these rights are not natural rights but ones given to us by a benevolent government. Ask them what happens when the government takes them away?
 
Technically speaking...

Let's say there was a National CCW Permit -- it'd be something from the federal government and it's relavant to the forums. Since the NCCW would give a person a right to carry concealed in any state, if the police arrested someone for legally carrying a concealed weapon while that person was in posession of their NCCW permit, that would be an example of an instance where police are taking away a 'right' granted by the federal government.

There would be a distinction between that scenario and police stopping a random person on the street and searching their person which is a constitutionally protected freedom.

That would also differ from a scenario where someone was wearing a red shirt. While being an extra-Constitutional freedom (it's not protected by the Constitution and no law is made against it and is, therefore, lawful), it's still a freedom endowed to us by our creator.

IANAL, but I'd gather that all three scenarios above are vastly different in terms of what he says. Plain and simple, he's incorrect.
 
The right to vote is a right given by the Constitution. Other rights relating to the judicial process are creations of the Constitution. However, you are correct that most right secured by the Constution and Bill of Rights are preexisting human rights.
 
Its not just the right to keep and bear

Consider the drivers license, you continually hear you have no right to drive, its a privilege. Actually our rights have roots in English common law. Any citizen had the right to get in his wagon and drive to town on the Kings Highway. But as soon as we started putting engines in our wagons, that fundamental right was taken away and converted into a privilege. I believe I have a cite if anyone is interested, of a Supreme Court decision which says you cannot be compelled to obtain a drivers license. I would argue the same should be true of CCW.
 
This is getting a bit off-topic, but if any of you who've watched the 'Constitution for Patriots' lectures (found on Google Video), the states are able to regulate your driving privileges based on being the custodian of your vehicles title.

When you purchase a vehicle, the Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin is sent to the State who microfiche's it, then shreds it. You are then issued a *certificate* of title (mind you, not the title itself). If you were to obtain that Manufacturer's Certificate of Origin (very hard to do and only possible if you purchase the vehicle outright) you hold allodial title -- you don't need to register the vehicle, you don't need tags, you don't need to take it through inspection, and you don't need a license to drive it.

Once again, very hard to do and drifting off topic... also a rather complex topic of ownership, but it's out there.
 
Makarova: Please post the citation. That sounds relevant to something I am writing about in a class I am taking. I am trying to get the point across about how culture changes with technology and the culture lag is a little slow but can hinder our culture dramatically.
 
The authors of the Constitution were clear, The Bill of Rights comprises the first ten amendments to the Constitution, and all relate to limiting the power of the federal government not "rights given by the federal government" to the people.

These were put in place because critics argued that without further restraints, the strong central government would become tyrannical.

He needs not only more lessons in US Civics but a refresher in US Constitutional law, if such is taught to MP's as I do not know.
 
Wynder, permits are privileges by their very nature. They are NOT rights. The very basis of CCW permits is to invalidate Amendment II of the United States Constitution(RIGHT of the people to BEAR arms) and denying a God-given RIGHT by making it a PRIVILEGE that one must get PERMISSION(hence "permit") from the government.

This is one of the reasons I strongly oppose national concealed-carry weapon permits.
 
He needs not only more lessons in US Civics but a refresher in US Constitutional law, if such is taught to MP's as I do not know.
Air Force MP's is a new one to me. Last I heard they were SP's but I'm not in the AF so I'm no expert. I know for sure that real MP's aren't taught such.
 
You were somewhat right and somewhat wrong. The fedgov GIVES the right to vote. The fedgov RECOGNIZES the right to arms.
 
I've had a similiar argument with a professor. She's a hardcore liberal and feminist, so that might give some insight to her thought process...

I insisted that our rights are God given, and recognized and AFFIRMED by the Constitution.

The problem with today's society is that most people have been socialized (well, closer to brainwashed) into thinking that many of our freedoms are merely privileges.
 
Tecumseh:

Here ya go. This is my file on that one.
The right to travel is a fundamental right. “The right to travel is a part of the “liberty” of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. So much is conceded by the Solicitor General. In Anglo-Saxon law that right was emerging at least as early as the Magna Carta.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958). “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941. Further, “It is well-established law that the highways of the state are public property; and their primary and preferred use is for private purposes...” Stephenson v. Binford 287 U.S. 251, 264, et al.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...#United_States

Quote:
From the Wikipedia Link Posted above:

In the United States, no specific law guarantees this right, but the Supreme Court of the United States has held in a number of cases that such a right necessarily exists. In Kent v. Dulles, 357 U.S. 116 (1958), the United States Secretary of State had refused to issue a passport, based on the suspicion that the plaintiff was going abroad to promote communism. Justice William O. Douglas wrote for the Court:

The right to travel is a part of the 'liberty' of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment. . . . Freedom of movement across frontiers in either direction, and inside frontiers as well, was a part of our heritage. Travel abroad, like travel within the country, . . . may be as close to the heart of the individual as the choice of what he eats, or wears, or reads. Freedom of movement is basic in our scheme of values.

The U.S. Supreme Court dealt with the right of interstate travel most recently in the case of Saenz v. Roe, 526 U.S. 489 (1999). In that case, Justice John Paul Stevens, writing for the majority, held that the United States Constitution protected three separate aspects of the right to travel among the states: the right to enter one state and leave another, the right to be treated as a welcome visitor rather than a hostile stranger (protected by the Privileges and Immunities Clause in Article IV, §2), and for those who become permanent residents of a state, the right to be treated equally to native born citizens (this is protected by the 14th Amendment Citizenship Clause).

The issue of freedom of movement has received new attention in the United States as of 2004; in particular, concerning the methods and internal practices of the Transportation Security Administration.[citation needed]

Another issue of contention deals with freedom of movement across U.S. national borders. The United States has long been lax in permitting persons to cross from Canada into the United States. Concerns about drug trafficking and illegal immigrants seeking employment have led to much stricter controls on those crossing the border from Mexico.

They are Public raods, built with Public funds.

“It is well-established law that the highways of the state are public property; and their primary and preferred use is for private purposes...” Stephenson v. Binford 287 U.S. 251, 264, et al.

“It is settled that the streets of a city belong to the people of a state and the use thereof is an inalienable right of every citizen of the state.” Whyte v. City of Sacramento, 165 Cal. App.534, 547.

“No state government entity has the power to allow or deny passage on the highways, byways, nor waterways... transporting his vehicles and personal property for either recreation or business, but by being subject only to local regulation, i.e., safety, caution, traffic lights, speed limits, etc. Travel is not a privilege requiring licensing, vehicle registration, or forced insurance.” Chicago Coach Co. v. City of Chicago, 337 Ill. 200, 169 N.E. 22.


“Even the legislature has no power to deny to a citizen the right to travel upon the highway and transport his property in the ordinary course of his business or pleasure, though this right may be regulated in accordance with public interest and convenience.” ibid at 206.

“The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” ibid at 221.

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.” Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24.

“The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579.

“A carriage is peculiarly a family or household article. It contributes in a large degree to the health, convenience, comfort, and welfare of the householder or of the family.” Arthur v Morgan, 113 U.S. 495, 500, 5 S.Ct. 241, 243 (S.D. NY 1884).

“The Supreme Court, in Arthur v. Morgan, 112 U.S. 495, 5 S.Ct. 241, 28 L.Ed. 825, held that carriages were properly classified as household effects, and we see no reason that automobiles should not be similarly disposed of.” Hillhouse v United States, 152 F. 163, 164 (2nd Cir. 1907).

The only real and legal distinction made (by the Courts) is one of personal use and commercial use.

The only real distinction of registering your vehicle or obtaining a Drivers License, is that you have bought into a state controlled method of revenue raising, by attesting that you are driving as a commercial endeavor and can therefore be regulated.

“If the state converts a liberty into a privilege the citizen can engage in the right with impunity.” Shuttlesworth v. Birmingham (1963) 373 U.S. 262.

In Marchetti v. U.S., 390 US 39,57; See v Seattle, 387 US 541, the Court reiterated what it said in U.S. v Miller, “The exercise of a constitutional right cannot be the basis of a crime.”

I suspect that the NFA could be attacked along the same lines, once Parker is upheld and becomes precedent.

Pm me if you have questions.
 
You are correct.

Rights are individual freedoms over which the government cannot assume power. Rights are those that we are born with (natural , God given, whatever...), that we possess as free people, over which we agree the government we form cannot assume power.

The government does not grant us rights. We form the government and give it power, in doing so we give up freedoms.

Edit: For this reason, things such as health care or education cannot be "rights". Since that assumes the formation of health care systems, providers, payers, educators, education systems, etc. That stuff does not exist in free natural state and therefore cannot be called a "right". That does not mean it may not be a good idea and one we decide on providing through our governmental systems and communal payers, it's just not a "right".

Edit: People have rights. Governments have power. Power that people give to them, or that they take.
 
As far as God given right or Federal Gov. given……well there is more than one way to look at things.

I have to point out that there are many Americans who don’t believe in God so yes they do see our rights coming from our government and not God. Some even argue that many of the framers them selves didn’t have strong religious ties and that use of words " God Given" was just a dramatic period appropriate way of getting their point across….. basically in a nut shell  People should be treated equal and fairly and not walked on by a government.

However you choose to look at it that issue, it’s a fact that its not God who is going to charge you with violating some ones rights, it’s the government that will do that.

I think that is what the point of the class was all about; Don’t violate some ones rights and get put in jail for it….by the government.

Don't get to down on higher education, if the framers were alive today many of them would have offices at Universities. Here’s to open minds.
 
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