Hip shooting?

[ZVP]

I played around a little firing my HD cut down Pump from the Hip
Suprisinglly I did pretty well on a silhouette at 15 ft and a water bottle at 20 yds!
I know you're supposed to shootprolerly from the sholder but you may have to shoot radically sometime.
Opinions?
Thanks,
ZVP

 

[kudu]

When I was shooting registered skeet heavily, 25-30 thousand rounds a year, I could average 22 out of 25 birds shooting from the hip. Never ran a 25 straight, but had lots and lots of 24's. This was regulation skeet targets and doubles. I don't hardly shoot much skeet anymore, last time I tried from the hip I broke a 14 out of 25. I was also able to break about 50% of trap targets from the hip at the 27 yard line, that's a bit tougher.

It's all in practice and repeatability.

 

[Sam1911]

The thread most worth reviewing: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=44465

The single greatest treatise on Pistol-Grip-Only shotguns and "hip shooting" from someone of great worth who actually knew what he was talking about.

 

[d2wing]

There is a reason that exhibition shooters can do it. There is a science to it and it can be taught. It is not magic. Not everyone can be taught and it isn't easy to master and it takes lots of practice and it will not take the place of shooting from the shoulder. I am not giving tips online.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've taken some classes and we've done close contact drills from the hip. It can be done.

 

[Pete D.]

Hip

There is a reason that exhibition shooters can do it.

Yep....one reason is that they shoot about a bazillion shells a year practicing.
Pete

 

[lemaymiami]

Since all of my shotgun work was focused on the street where you might only have a fraction of a second between seeing a threat and reacting properly... I used to tell my guys over and over "you still have to line 'em up and knock them down". In my experience there's a world of difference between lots of ammo expended and that one center of mass single shot... I've spoken to more than one guy who shot whatever he/she had absolutely dry and never hit a thing in a panic situation.

That said, whatever gets the job done, since you still need to survive any armed encounter. For me, unless we're at bad breath distances I want to make sure that one response is on the money and a properly mounted shotgun with a good stance and that instant needed to line your target up properly is everything....

 

[Sav .250]

In an emergency, you have to do what you have to do.

 

[kBob]

The Army used to teach hip shooting with the M-1/M-2 carbines. They also taught it with the M-60 GPMG and called it one of the assault positions. interestingly firing the M-60 from the hip was not graded and at two post I served at the range were hip firing was done was referred to unofficially as "The John Wayne Range"

For a bit the Army adopted what they called Quick Kill and Daisy Air Guns called Quick Skill. Initial training in quick Kill was taught with air "rifles" (smooth bore spring powered BB guns) made by , guess who? Daisy sold the same adult size stocked air rifle to the public with instructions and plastic targets. This system made a big thing of ignoring the sights, focusing on the target and yet shouldering the long gun.

About the only thing left of it after 1972 was that folks in training got tape placed over the front and rear sights of their M-16A-1 and told to shoulder and point. You were actually supposed to use this technique in qualification on four targets. It was called un aimed fire at that point. Not strangely those targets which were shot from the stand as the trainee/testee walked toward a standing man sized falling target. If the grader saw the shooter using the sights it was supposed to be graded as a miss.

Thanks to having owned an M-1 Carbine and access to cheap French "7.5mm Carbine" and a manual borrowed from JROTC I had done a good bit of Hip Shooting. Naturally when the 25 meter target popped up on my third step forward I snapped into a hip shooting position and dropped the target. The entire range went into "CEASE FIRE!" because of "someone" was using an unsafe shooting technique.

An ancient Korean War vet of a E-8 trotted down and had me demonstrate the hip firing position though appearently in an attempt to show the younger NCOs and young Officers that it would work and thankfully while a few hundred folks watches I dropped three more targets and they let me shoot over using the proper technique for scoring. Over the next week I took a lot of John Wayne and Audey Murphey ribbing.......and a few guys wanted to know how to do it.

I think hip shooting has SOME merit. I also think that even with practice it will not be as accurate.....especially under stress..... as shouldering the rifle and "point" shooting that is basically Quick Skill. One of the biggest issues is that most ranges will toss your butt off for hip shooting so no one practices.

I occasionally practice with a "BB gun" with most of the time doing so one an old Crossman AiR-15 though occasionally with your basic Red Rider-ish BB gun.

I think this translates to shooting a "real" firearm pretty well and most of us can do as much as we like in our own back yards. Interestingly enough when Lucy Lu (Watson on Elementary) was a regular on "The View" she shocked the liberal biddies by saying her Dad and she used to point shoot Styrofoam wig heads in the back yard with an air pistol. You should have seen the expressions on the faces of most of those.....liberal women. But enough with the dangers of being a stay at home Dad.....at least I never fell for soap operas.

If you want to engage in hip shooting consider doing so with a BB gun as close to what you will shoot as possible, then give it a few hundred tries to see if you want to put more time into it.

Without training for it, it seems like a good way to put shoots anywhere but where you want them. You will likely find you can get the "Windage" right fairly quickly but your shots may be high or low and unpredictably so for a while.

If this is to be applied to a pistol grip only shot gun......you loose your all important anchor, the stock held against your hip or side below your ribs. I suppose you could eventually learn to do it with some degree of accuracy but I simply would not want a pistol grip shot gun in the first place because it would be expensive and difficult to find a place to practice with. I do not know but there may be some "Air Soft" models of such guns and that might be a starting place. I have done it with a folding stock (man that steel over folder stock is brutal) 870 and PGO 870s and 500s but I do not think it to be as fast or accurate as with a full stocked gun. I find the best way for me to shoot PGO and folded stock PG guns is to extend the non firing hand with the fore stock firmly gripped until the elbow is either locked or nearly so and bringing the gun to eye level. A friend used to shoot one "from the hip" By locking his elbow into a normal hip firing position and just holding on to the pistol grip and doing much the same as he would with a stocked gun with his non firing hand. He also MUCH preffered a fully stocked gun.

What ever you do, do it safely and if you can not, don't do it.

Find out if hip shooting will get you tossed off the range BEFORE you try it.

Safe Shooting,
-kBob

 

[d2wing]

KBob, I agree with everything you said including about full stocked guns. I still have a Daisy built without sights from my instructor days. There are steps to learn it properly.
That said, I don't encourage it's use and the Army has dropped it. The goal of being able to shoot very quickly can cause one to shoot without time to think or fully identify the target, thus in the end, extremely dangerous as well as being limited in effectiveness.

 

[kudu]

Pistol grip shotguns are an entirely different thing than what I was referring to shooting from the hip. ZVP did not mention anything about PGO, just a cut down shotgun, which I assumed meant a shortened barrel. Still the only thing that gets a person to reliably hit consistantly is many rounds of ammo down range.

 

[d2wing]

Just shooting down range hoping to pick it up is just random shooting. Hard to be consistent if you have no idea of how to train yourself. But it is your ammo, have fun. With luck you and persistence you may do well. Part of it is instinctive.

 

[ZVP]

My intrest in Hip Shooting stems from my disability, I have BAD knees legs and feet. with these problems, my center of gravity when standing is pretty high and easily kicked back and off balance.
Yes the 12 Ga is a pump with a cut down barrel and full wood stocks.
One day while just playing around shooting at silouttes, I shot from the Hip and was much steadier as my C.G. was lower and my arms tucked into the body made my stance sturdier.
MY aim was not improved at all and frankily, it'd take a LOT of pratice to learn this technique.
You see, I have a singular set of problems that I am trying to deal with. I have a SXS 20gs now that reduces the kick a lot and being lighter, it sholders quicker. All this helps me maintain balance.
Yes I do have a number of revolvers that in my case are better suited to overcome my disabilitys. However, what good is having a particular gun without trying to apply it's use to self defense?
Thanks for all the great replies!
ZVP

 

[Pete D.]

kick

I have a SXS 20gs now that reduces the kick a lot and being lighter, it sholders quicker.

If it works for you...great. Is recoil really reduced? Generally, 20 gauge SGs have about the same felt recoil as 12s...because they are lighter and do not soak up recoil the way a heavier gun would.
Pete

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Try placing the butt stock under your armpit.
Very accurate and easy to master.

 

[d2wing]

In your case I would be willing to help. Do you live near Minnesota?

 

[kayak-man]

I find the subjects of point shooting, shooting from the hip, and PGO shotguns to be facinating!

I see them all as things that may not be optimal, but that doesn't mean they are without worth. Specifically, with regard for shooting from the hip, I have a hard time thinking of a situation when that would be necessary. Maybe if there was some obstacle that prevented me from shouldering the gun, or my left arm was injured and I was resting the forearm on a chair or table, but I don't really see it being super useful all that often. Even so, I can't think of a single reason why one shouldn't practice it.

I don't think its any big surprise that shouldering a firearm with a stock is going to give you the best results, but if you don't always need to shoulder it, more power to you!

In an emergency, you have to do what you have to do.

Agreed, BUT I would also argue that "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, you sure as hell aren't going to have enough time to do it right the second time." Granted, it's all situation dependent, but for the most part, I'd be more inclined to get the weapon shouldered and the sights on target so that if you do only have time for one shot, you can make that one shot count. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's a good skill to have, BUT I wouldn't put it as my first priority when it comes to my practice and training.

 

[kudu]

What helps me point is making sure I use my index finger of the off hand to point at the target that I plan to shoot, I also lock the gun stock just at or above the belt line. On moving targets my knees and lower body are the only thing letting me swing the gun, otherwise I tend to shift too much to stay on target, my shoulders and arms never move from where they are locked in.

 

[MCgunner]

If it works for you...great. Is recoil really reduced? Generally, 20 gauge SGs have about the same felt recoil as 12s...because they are lighter and do not soak up recoil the way a heavier gun would.

A slug out of my 20 gauge SxS coach gun isn't bad at all. Can shoot 'em all day off the bench. A slug out of my heavier 12 gauge 28" bbl SxS kicks like the hammer of Thor!

Not quite as dramatic a difference shooting dove loads, but the 20 is easier on the shoulder even then given 1 ounce loads in each. This is with my calibrated shoulder. The 20 does fit me better, I'll admit that. Still, recoil is less, not just felt recoil.

As for "shooting from the hip", can't see the value in it. I would tuck the stock under my arm for a walkabout in the house, perhaps. Better retention on the gun. I would also hold the gun to my side behind me. At very close range, I could whip it up and fire from well off my shoulder if not at hip level. The little gun is short and light and that's its big advantage for self defense. I can see it, off shoulder shooting, for home defense scenarios, but if I wanna HIT something farther out than hand to hand range, I'm not Tom Knapp. I'll shoot from the shoulder. For this reason, I don't do PGOs. That limits me too much. I can "hip shoot" with a full length stock just fine.