historic 38 Special loads with Unique

[bazza]

I have been shooting an old load from my Speer Manual #6 (1963) that uses 5 grains on unique and a 160 grain LSWC bullet. This is the middle load at 807 fps.
Elmer Kieth also mentioned this load as a good solid 38 special load.

On the web for Alliant powder they call out 4.5 grains of Unique and a 158 grain LSWC of Unique as a +P load at 950 fps

What is going on with load recommendations, is the powder hotter today or is the company being more cautious. Should I continue to use my 5.0 grain load or should I backoff. I just got a M-60 and am looking for a good load.

Thanks

Bazza
Texas

 

[MCgunner]

I load 5.0 grains unique behind a 158 SWC. It is a mild +P load, but not that wild. I get 220 fpe out of a 2" barrel with it and 270 out of my wild +P loads which use a slower powder, 2400. I don't know if Unique has gotten hotter, denser, whatever since Elmer's day, but I wouldn't be surprised if it has. Old loading manuals should be replaced from time to time because powders do change. But, I think your manual might be a little paranoid, too. Just work up your loads looking for pressure signs. It's also good to verify them with a chronograph.

My favorite .8 load is another old standby, 2.7 grains Bullseye and a 148 grain wadcutter. That one is very accurate, mild, and miserly with powder.

 

[Gordon]

Latest(October) Handloader magazine shows (on page 36) the 173 cast Lyman 358429 bullet (my favorite) with 5.5 of current Unique for a 20,000psi +p load for 1011 fps out of a 6.5" barrel. I have used this load for 30 years in many medium and larger frame guns of post war manufacture with excellent results. A non plus P load would be 5 grains of Unique, which is a good factory normal load for 158grain up to the 173 grain Keith slug.
I have used the 5 grain load behind the 173 grain Keith bullet in J frame guns for many moons and it gives you about 775- 800 fps out of 2" barrels- all you should exspect!

 

[Steve C]

The current Speer #13 manual goes up to 5.2grs with their 158gr LS(WC, WCHP, RN) in a +P loading. The powder hasn’t changed over the years however other things have. I had the chance to talk to the Hercules employees at an NRA convention years ago and I asked them why load data has changed over the years. Their comment was that components have changed, most notably primers have gotten hotter. Since their data is somewhat generic they give a more conservative loading. Alliant lists their 4.5gr +P 158gr load at 950 fps but that’s from a 5.6” barrel and there’s a good chance that it’s a non vented test barrel and not an actual revolver so their velocities are higher than one would normally get.

You will never be able to see pressure signs in a .38 spl load until you are way beyond .357 mag pressures. Think about it, you don’t see pressure signs in a .357 mag load running over 30K psi why would you expect to see any pressure signs in a cartridge that runs less than 21K psi at the maximum?

I’ve loaded 158gr LSWC’s with as much as 5.5grs of Unique. The resultant velocity from a 4” revolver was 1,083 fps average. I’d shot this load for years, mostly in .357 mag pistols but it was below the 6.0grs maximum shown in my old Hornady manual and was OK according to other manuals I’d checked at the time. Hornady did say to use loads above starting in heavy frame .38’s only. The chrono showed that it was pretty warm for the .38 spl. and there was no pressure signs.

I’ve chrono’d a 158gr Speer LSWCHP on top of 5.2gr Unique using CCI primers in Winchester cases, the resulting velocity was only 733 fps out of my 2” Colt Detective special and 886 fps from my 4” S&W M67. On the same day I also ran some 5.0gr loads using Winchester primers in PMC cases and got 782 fps from the DS and 901 fps from the M67. The difference in components gave me more velocity with less powder.

The conclusion is that you need to chrono the loads to see what they’re doing, anything else is a guess. In the .38 spl it’s the velocity that will tell you how much power the loads giving you. If you get +P velocities IE. 770 fps or greater in a 2” barrel or 900 fps + in a 4” then you can expect more wear and tear on your pistol especially if it’s a light weight revolver designed for standard velocity loads. Nothing wrong with shooting higher velocity loads, just don’t shoot a lot of them in a J frame not designed for .357 mag ammo if you want the gun to last.

 

[bazza]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the great responses. I will stick with my simple load for my M-60 and other .38 shooting. I am also going to load some WCs with bulleye for practice.

I am a newby and this is a great site.

Thanks
Bazza
Texas

 

[LAH]

Welcome to the board. I'm still shooting 5 grs. with a 150 to 170 gr. bullet. So far, no reason to change...........Creeker

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I shot 5 grns of Unique under a 158 lead SWC for 20 years then I started looking at the manuals and wimped back to as light as 4.0 grns for about 7 years. After a lot of thought I recognized that while it was harder on my little D frame Colt's it was not destroying them. Thus I went back and now I load the same 5 grns of Unique when I am not shooting puff loads of trailboss which I put in the little D frames.

The reality in my mind is that while this is a hot load today or into the +p territory, the +p territory has slowly been moved down to cover these loads. I do realize this is increasing the wear and tear of my guns, and yes I will wear them out prematurely.

I just don't think 5 grns of Unique will phase my big 38/44's!

 

[Jet22]

the 173 cast Lyman 358429 bullet (my favorite) with 5.5 of current Unique for a 20,000psi +p load for 1011 fps out of a 6.5" barrel. I have used this load for 30 years

Exact same load I have used since I started reloading in 1973. It still is and aways will be my favorite 38 Special load (and bullet). It is in the older Lyman books.

 

[Gordon]

Peter check out the Oct. issue of HandLoader magazine (a very classy Wolfe publication BTW) , it has a feature article on loading for the 38-44 and it has more info on those guns then I've ever seen!

 

[Jet22]

I just don't think 5 grns of Unique will phase my big 38/44's!

I don't want to print what I'm shooting in my 4" 38-44 but I will say that I'm getting 1200fps with a 180 grain Remington jacketed bullet! This gun shot low at 50 yards with regular velocity 38's so I increased the bullet weight and just kept adding powder till it hit at the point of aim. The load is actually mild in this gun!!

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Gordon,

I have the article and actually I was pretty disappointed with it. It is not technically in error, but I guess I wanted to read a "ken Waters" style writeup on the powders and accuracy and what I got was an "Elmer Keith" style "me and joe went shooting" type of article as someone else posted about it.

I have gone back and forth about writing the editor because it was irritating to see Handloader go that way, but I admit I have not done it yet. Maybe today I will sit down and let them know.

My beef is that it was not until the last page or so of the article he talks about handloading it. Everywhere else we learn about the guns, his growing up and shooting it, lots of stuff like that but as a handloader, I want to know about the powders, bullets, pressure testing, good combinations of powders/bullets and more importantly what DID NOT work. Heck I learn more from Ken Waters old articles about what did not work then what did. I do not remember him ever mentioning in his article how he determined pressure in his guns. Basically I interpret the article as "this did not blow up my gun, good luck".

I don't mean to be harsh but I wish handloader magazine was just a bit more technical like it used to be and a lot less like guns and ammo.