History question

[kestak]

Greetings,

I remember reading that in a novel years ago and now I just read that again in Invasion:New York. I know the writer does not have a huge knowledge in firearms, it shows at multiple places.

But I tried to find out where that idea started where the USSR block had ammo that could not be fired by NATO but the USSR could use NATO ammo in their guns. I cannot think of any cartridge that can be swapped like that. Anyone knows who is the idiot who wrote about that the first time and got so many followers to believe that?

Thank you

 

[Sam1911]

That's been kicked around a lot over the years. Sometimes regarding 7.62x39 (AKM & SKS, etc.) vs. our 7.62 NATO, and sometimes regarding 5.45x39 (AK-74, etc.) vs. our 5.56 NATO.

It doesn't work and wouldn't be safe nor even a last-ditch choice either way, but ideas take hold.

In a great deal of life, the problem isn't that we don't know. It's that we know so much that isn't true.

 

[hso]

Yep, myth believed by people that can't read specs on firearms and cartridges or who don't own both types of firearms.

 

[rcmodel]

It's older then NATO.

I can remember WWII vets saying the same thing about the Japanese being able to use our 30-06 in their 7.7 Ariska's, but we couldn't use theirs.

rc

 

[MutinousDoug]

I don't recall it being said about small arms but the Soviet 82 mm mortars and .51 cal heavy machine guns suggested themselves to be one way interchangeable when I was in 1969-70.

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, that mortar/machine gun thing was a common belief when I was in the Army, 1954-1958.

 

[kestak]

I just put a 30-06 and jap round side by side. Am I cazy but it would have worked?

 

[Rollis R. Karvellis]

I to remember being told the fable about a U.S. service rifle being able to fire different cartridges of both U.S., and Soviet manufacture.

Of course the drooling idiot who was explaining it to us was a 13 year old male showing off his knowledge to a couple of 10 year old drooling idiot males.

Most males between age 10 and about 17 are drooling idiots no matter what, but the sad thing is that a much larger percentage are still in that state even into their 50's, and 60's now.

 

[yugorpk]

Its one of those things drill sergeants tell you in basic training that almost everyone believes because they don't know any better. Some of us were busy face palming.

Theres a long list of them.

 

[aeriedad]

I think it's true for Soviet 82mm mortars using USA/NATO 81mm mortar rounds, and that's about it. I heard as much when active duty USMC (1987-2008), but never researched it myself until just now: https://books.google.com/books?id=i...#v=onepage&q=russian 82mm mortar 81mm&f=false

Never heard the same about small arms / machine gun ammo, and quick research today suggests such rumors are unfounded. Be careful out there.

 

[rcmodel]

I just put a 30-06 and jap round side by side. Am I cazy but it would have worked?

I don't know about crazy, but it won't work.

The start of the shoulder on a 30-06 is .141" further forward then the 7.7.

So it won't chamber far enough for the bolt to close.

There was a cottage industry following WWII of running a 30-06 finish reamers in them to deepen the hole so 30-06 could be used.

But the problem with that is the back of the case is slightly smaller then the Arisaka chamber, so bulged brass resulted.

The same occurred when making 7.7 brass out of 30-06 brass.

rc

 

[Deaf Smith]

In WW2 and beyond the Russians used some cannons that COULD use US ammo.

For example, their 82mm mortars could use US 81mm ammo (but not vice-versa.)

I know of no small arms that could allow interchange like that. Most certainly not 7.62x39.

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by rcmodel:

There was a cottage industry following WWII of running a 30-06 finish reamers in them to deepen the hole so 30-06 could be used.

But the problem with that is the back of the case is slightly smaller then the Arisaka chamber, so bulged brass resulted.

The same occurred when making 7.7 brass out of 30-06 brass.

I remember mail order ads for converted guns. I never thought about the case size issue.

I also remember 6.5 Arisakas rechambered to .257 Roberts. Bad fit wrt bore dia.

I remember the story of a smith who ran a .30-'06 reamer into a 6.5.

Kicked very hard but held together.

 

[200Apples]

I remember the story of a smith who ran a .30-'06 reamer into a 6.5.

Kicked very hard but held together.

I have a fantasy for doing the same but with .308 into a X 39 CZ 527 Carbine.

It will remain fantasy... but what a hotrod that would be.

 

[Ditchtiger]

7.62 NATO in a 7.62x54r chamber did work by accident.
Sold a Mosin to an neighbor, when we were out shooting later he had a stuck shell. He started giving me grief until I knocked out a fired .308 shell. Not something I would do on purpose. Also told him to pay closer attention to his ammo.

 

[lysanderxiii]

For example, their 82mm mortars could use US 81mm ammo (but not vice-versa.)

Jane's Book of Infantry Weapons for 1975 shows on pp. 707-708 drawings of three Soviet 82mm mortar bombs. The diameter over the bourrelets is given as:

bomb________diameter

O-832_______3.202 inches (81.33mm)

O-832D______3.216 inches (81.68mm)

O-832DU_____3.2 inches (81.28mm)

The US 81mm mortar shells are around 3.210 inches (81.53mm) in diameter over the obturating band. So, with the necessary clearance to allow the bomb to actually slide down the tube, a few Soviet/Russian shells will actually fit in US/UK tubes.

So, the limiting factor is the design of the firing pin....

The nomenclature depends on how you round, up or down, to the nearest mm. In fact, the British "3 inch" mortar was actually 3.2 inch, or 81mm.

 

[col.lemat]

I had a short lived friend who hammered a 22 magnum into his Winchester 22 long rifle. He did it once. Before that he used to shoot 45/70's out of his 50/70 Impressive to say the least. He never could understand why nobody wanted to be around him when he went shooting. Stupid is as stupid does. Cant fix stupid!

 

[243winxb]

.223 fired through a 7.62x39 barrel http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=791485

she actually was able to fire 10 rounds through the AK.

 

[Mauser lover]

What about thinking of something like a .38 Special and .357 mag?

 

[lysanderxiii]

What about thinking of something like a .38 Special and .357 mag?

There are a few you can get away with safely:

.38 Spl in .357 Mag
.38 Colt in .38 Spl
.44 Spl in .44 Mag
.44-40 in .45 LC
.22 Short in .22 LR

However, none of those reverse, and may not be as accurate or reliable....