home defense quandry

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My family had a similar seriese of incidents about five years aog. We put up motion sensor lighting in our front and side yards and a six foot anti-scaling fence in our back yard. SInce we live in the suburbs there are plenty of other houses around and the threat of being seen in the lights seemed to take care of the problem. I don't know if you live in more rural or urban areas but if you have neighborss that are close enough to see your house then I would suggest the lighting and organizing a neighborhood watch of sorts.
 
I know putting up lights and getting a dog seems like a very un-satisfying end to the situation, especially compared to shooting, and for me, especially compared to a retaliatory paintballing the next time they show up.

Unfortunately, we have to save it and get our satisfaction in court, when and if that day comes, if we want to remain law-abiding citizens.

You could hold the kids at gunpoint and wait for the cops if you catch them next time. Its a well-principled approach, its not overbearing, but I think it does involve unnecessary risk to yourself.

An approach that's a little strange that might be useful would be to find a permanent dye that you can load into a spray gun. If you catch them, you can videotape the act and tag them right back, then call the police and tell them you just got vandalized by three soggy-looking purple kids.
 
Believe me a large dog attached to someones a$$ is very satisfying. Don't underestimate what they can do for you. Shooting is and should always be the last resort no matter how bad they need it. A dog believe it or not usually gains more respect than a man with a gun.
Jim
 
What precipitated the vandalism? If there is history here you need to take that into account as well.

Block watches, motion sensors, and watchdogs are all good suggestions. Shooting someone over property isn't unless exigent circumstances are involved - like you happen to be sitting in it when they try to torch it.
 
Please Don't kill anybody in a sudden outburst of anger. If your life is not in direct danger, don't shoot anybody. Here are some tips to make it harder for further vandalism to occur:

1.Buy good outdoor lights.
2.Consider getting a dog.
3.If you see vandalism occur on your property call the cops.
4.Install high fences.
5.Park your car in your garage, instead of in your driveway.

I hope these help.

Vandalism burns me up :cuss: , however please don't kill anybody that you don't have to. Reserve that option for the very gravest extreme.
 
Folks, it could be that a lot of folks just don't have a lot of spare cash (witness me). Things aren't always so simple.

Biker
 
If you see them again, you might arm yourself and challenge them if they are in the process of trespassing and vandalism. You can then take it from there. You have to take some care though. The additional steps mentioned above would be helpful. Above all, make sure you have a track record of police reports on the incidents.

For about 4 months of the year, Texas has a season called Fallwinterspring. Other than that it is Summer with varying degrees of heat and humidity. Even Fallwinterspring is interspersed with warm periods. Down here near the Gulf Coast it is even rare to actually get below freezing.
 
What precipitated the vandalism? If there is history here you need to take that into account as well.

the only thing that precipitated the vandalsim was a recent influx of ne'er do wells that were displaced from a section 8 neighbourhood nearby that is being redeveloped.

our yard is too large to install huge fences and the like. we don't have that kind of money, and as silly as it sounds, i refuse to close myself in like that. some flood lights are a possibility, but neighbours don't live that close that it would be very noticeable if they went on. i like the idea of spraying something on the vandals. i have a 200,000 volt taser that just sits around. i'm also kicking around the idea of getting one down and hitting him with that if they come around again.
 
The last 5 years or so I lived in San Diego, the Crips and the Bloods decided to move into our suburb. We organized a neighborhood patrol and had a pretty quiet area for about 6 blocks in all directions from my house. One of the local cops told me that the backs of street signs leading into our area were marked as entering a danger zone by both gangs. Putting a few of the early intruders in jail helped our reputation a lot. We had a couple of retaliatory raids by gang members early on but that proved costly for them, also. Having over 75% military and ex-military in the neighbothood probably had something to do with it. :evil:

Pops
 
"the only thing that precipitated the vandalsim was a recent influx of ne'er do wells that were displaced from a section 8 neighbourhood nearby that is being redeveloped. our yard is too large to install huge fences and the like. we don't have that kind of money, and as silly as it sounds, i refuse to close myself in like that. some flood lights are a possibility, but neighbours don't live that close that it would be very noticeable if they went on. i like the idea of spraying something on the vandals. i have a 200,000 volt taser that just sits around. i'm also kicking around the idea of getting one down and hitting him with that if they come around again."


No where was getting a dog mentioned.:scrutiny: . I'd reccommend a lab/chow mix. Good size, nice bark & very loving to it's family:) :) . I think the taser option is a bad idea. What if the BG gets electrocuted to death:uhoh: ? I can just picture the DA's opening statement at your trial. It goes like this:

DA: "Ladies & gentleman of the jury. I want to thank you first of all for your taking time out of your lives to be on this jury. However boring you might feel it is, I want you to think about the fact that [BG's name here] will never be able to sit on a jury. He won't be able to do anything because [defendant's name here] shot him with a taser gun & fried his poor little body to a crisp. Have you folks ever seen what happens to a body when a person is electrocuted to death? Their eye's sometimes pop out of their sockets & on to their cheeks. Their liver gets so hot it can't be held by human hands during the autopsy. [defandant's name] wanted to murder someone. During this trial, I'll show you the pages of several websites he visited for information on how to murder poor [BG's name]. [BG's name here] just wanted to be accepted by his friends. That's why he went to [location] that night. Not to hurt anybody. Just to play around a little bit. But because of [defendant's name] blooodlust, a young man's life with a bright future was cut tragicly short. I ask that you take "a eye for a eye". Return a verdict of guilty so that maybe, just maybe, [BG's name] soul will be able to rest in peace."

If there are any real lawyers looking at this post I'd appreciate a PM telling me if my opening statement was something you guys would say. Maybe I should become a lawyer who just does the opening & closing statements.*thinks*.
 
Question:

How is having the large dog you bought for protection (punishment?) taking a large bite out of somebody's butt any more litigation-proof than shooting them where you shouldn't with a paintball gun? And I'd think you'd have a bit more control over what the paintball gun does than a what sufficiently pissed off big dog might get around to.

Seems like either way you're apt to be in a deep pile of legal trouble....:scrutiny:

One method has been condemned here; the other frequently recommended.

Just wondering........:confused:
 
good point Meef.
Also, approaching a gang member with a taser, paintball gun, or other non-lethal device could end with you getting yourself killed. And what good would that do you or your parents?

The camcorder is a good idea, and so are the lights. And, I'll second Biker's post about the book you need to read. Deadly force is part of the continuum of defensive force, but not the only part. Use it if you have to, but don't be in a big hurry to do so.
 
"tasers are completely non-lethal"
==========================
I strongly suggest you do a little more homework. You might find a couple of facts that offset your opinion. Like:
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/police_back_tasers.htm
http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2005/02/another-taser-death.html
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Oct-23-Sat-2004/news/25075550.html
In fact, when I ran a search on Google for the words "Taser" and "death" I got a total of 607,000 hits.


If in fact you are dealing with real gangs or wannabees, then you have a real problem. Direct confrontation is not in your best interest, that's what gangs do best. Never fight an opponent in their area of strength, look for their weaknesses and use those against them. If you go to war with the gang on the gang's terms, you essentially set yourself up as just one more gang in the fight (even if you are only a 'gang of one,' to steal a phrase from my former employer). And more than that, you directly challenge the gang. They CANNOT ignore you at that point. They have to not only come back, but do more bad things. That means real damage.

And if you set yourself up as an equal participant in that fight, the odds are better than even that the authorities will treat you as if you were but a member of a marauding gang. After all, the authorities are all about social control. They might not be able to exert any control over a group of local youts acting in loose confederation, with no known addresses or assets, who by the way might be genuinely dangerous if confronted by said authorities. But you, my friend, have a known address, a job, an income, assets, a good name/reputation and community standing. The authorities can darn well exert social control on you. And unless I miss my guess, they would jump at the chance to do so.

Besides, you aren't viewed as nearly so dangerous as that loose confederation of local youts.

You are a lot softer target, and the repercussions of your arrest and trial will ripple far out in the community. You will be a good example of what happens when (gasp!) you take the law into your own hands. You see, government needs people who need government. And they INSIST that you need them, in many cases. You want to be an example? Fine, go ahead and pick a fight with these kids. Just think about how you will look on the front page of the local paper when the picture of your perp walk appears above the fold.

Please note I am not attempting to jerk your chain here. I'm an oldphart retiree, not a teenage keyboard commando. Disbelieve all this if you want, it's no skin off my posterior region. We don't have gangs out here in the country where I live, but we still have crime- and I built a fence around the house and another around the entire 5 acres we live on, and all the gates are locked all the time. The fence is there to keep the dogs in (and the neighbor's buffalo out), and the dogs are there to keep wouldbe trespassers out. So far it's worked fine.

You think you can't afford a fence? Try renting a lawyer for a few months. You better get smart, quick, or you are risking losing everything you ever had, to include your parents' lives- or your own. IF these kids are a real gang that is. Don't get so busy thinking about what you are going to do to them that you forget to think about what THEY can do to YOU. They have less to lose.

And I am not saying just roll over and take it, or move out and let them have the area as part of their new turf. I _am_ saying you'd better learn to fight smarter, so you don't have to fight harder. Start out by doing what it takes to get the authorities on your side, and not making yourself their target-instead of that loose confederation of local youts. The authorities need victims who need their help- you'd better learn to portray yourself to them as a victim, not as the neighborhood Patton/Rambo/John the Wayne. Ask about help in establishing a Neighborhood Watch, or cooperate/participate in any other community outreach programs your local law enforcement organization(s) happen to have going.

Truth is, the 'gang in blue' can act just like any other street gang sometimes (and some street gangs have actually infliltrated the local law enforcement organizations as well, remember). What you want to do first is gather the authorities up and aim them at that loose confederation of local yout which is causing your problems. You _don't_ want to bring the authorities down on your own head by doing something open, obvious, rash and unmistakeably attributable to you and only you against the gang that's moving into your neighborhood and attacking your parents' property. And you _don't_ want to go yelling to the media about how the local cops aren't doing their jobs, and aren't protecting your aged parents who are good citizens and taxpayers and are being victimized by an out-of-control criminal gang.

Here's some homework- http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html .

Good luck,

lpl/nc
 
Lee Lapin, thanks for your post. my emotions run high, but i do consider my choices before i act, and i appreciate all the suggestions and help from everybody here. i'm streetwise enough to know generally who i'm dealing with, and what they're capable of, but i've been paying very close attention to everyone's responses regarding reactions to these people, and how perceptions could be twisted by LE or the media. i do however rue the fact that in most parts of our country, an honest, responsible, law-abiding man can no longer zealously pursue justice when his family and property are taken advantage of. i should have been born in a holler somewhere in the appalachians.
 
I haven't read every post, but what happened when you reported this to the police. Any suspects? Etc.

K
 
squeeky wheels

Time to start raising a major stink.....

Just calling the police and speaking with one officer is not going to get you anywhere. Do not let is rest there.

Make an appointment with the Chief....insist on it....fo together with your neighbors. Insist that he tell you what specific actions he is going to take. Your giving the Chief the opportunity to work with you....but if he's not interested.....

Go to the municiple official (Town Manager, Mayor....) if you don't get satisfactory responses from the Chief.

If he won't meet with you....time to call the newspapers (and/or TV). How are these "public servants" going to respond to bad press about how they are not stepping up to the plate. Make sure you use terms like "gang invasion", "hate crimes", "gang intimidation of the elderly".

Call your state reps. office. Request that he meet with your "community watch association".

IMO, shooting a paint ball gun with pepper loaded paint balls is an invitation for return fire from something more lethal. I wouldn't suggest doing it, unless that's the response you're looking for.
 
Does anyone have any credible sources of information, on, say, the last ten incidents in the US where a homeowner used deadly force on vandals, esp. juvenile vandals? Wondering what the eventual outcomes for the homeowners were.

K
 
I haven't read every post, but what happened when you reported this to the police. Any suspects? Etc.

nothing. he took some pictures and left. after talking to some of the neighbours, we have a name that could be a start. i'm calling the police today to give them the name. i'll keep updating.
 
I think the very act of posting here has compromised your position. Generally, you can not use deadly force against juveniles that are only threatening or committing property damage. You have posted your premeditated intent to do so. Not good, bro. Kill your account here and burn your hard drive. (Only kidding)

I suggest you do some research on what has happened to people who have reacted to vandalism as you have expressed the desire to do. Probably not good.

There are other ways to deal with this. Work with law enforcement. Make a stink. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Get some allies and get some political pressure going to do something about this menace to your neighborhood.

K
 
In a nutshell Do not sink to there level, going out and shooting anyone, with anything has its repucussions legal and oterwise. Tasers one's down what about the other 5 -10-15? Non lethal, sometimes is lethal rubber shot to head can kill, Piantball wouldn't bother you don't want them any angrier, taking a bat to one again out numbered now what? Lights, a dog, I have 2 Boxers noone screws around by my place, Fences I saw you said too expensive What price do you put on families safety? Cheaper than lawyer fees when YOU are the aggressor, even if you win at $400hr whats it going to cost? Theres a company out that sells a motion activated hose sprayer aimed toward keeping deer and other Pests away, worth looking into.I have 5' fence enclosing my property 3 motion lights and 2 dogs, used to work nights family was safe and my piece of mind was good.First thing I bought rt after my house was a Boxer and my wife never worried. Community watches are also a good Idea, but be aware if 2 are walking watch what to do whe 5-10 BG's confront them? You got to have a real plan and then another back up plan when TSHTF. Remember this The Mob Rules!!
Courts suck lawyers will turn it around and it will cost you money, so what if you are right gonna cost a hell of alot of Sheckles to find out I should've done something else. Be careful of first impulse can cost alot. Not just money either.
Hope I helped and Stay Safe and Smart.
 
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