Hopkins & Allen XL No. 8 Army

[Johnm1]

Not sure where the best place to post this question is, Gunsmith, Revolver, or Black Powder. We'll start here though it is likely no one has worked on this or the Navy Model (38 rf version)

I traded several rifles for this example. Despite being made by H&A, known for hundreds of thousands of inexpensive 'Suicide Specials', this series was designed to compete directly with the Colt Single Action Army.



Ian gives the firearm high grades and my sample is in ok shootable shape. This one is chambered in 'Winchester 1873' more commonly known as 44-40. First year manufacture in 1877 it is in remarkably good shape for a black powder cartridge firearm. Rifling is strong but dirty. It is a stoudt firearm.

The question is if anyone knows how to remove the cylinder?

 

[indy1919a4]

Made about the same time as yours (which is beautiful I may add)

any help..

 

[.455_Hunter]

I believe if you push in on the buttom of the vertical lever on the left side of the frame you can pull out the axis pin when the gun is at half cock. The cylinder should then be able to come out of the frame window.

 

[Johnm1]

Made about the same time as yours (which is beautiful I may add)

any help..

Close, but that is a standard pull pin removable cylinder. The lever on the left side allows the user to pull the pin (1871 patent) and remove the cylinder. I have a other 22 H&A that works the same way.

I believe if you push in on the buttom of the vertical lever on the left side of the frame you can pull out the axis pin when the gun is at half cock. The cylinder should then be able to come out of the frame window.

Unlike the video indy posted above, on this model when the center pin is pulled it allows the ejector rod (cylinder pin)to swing out so it can be used to punch out the empties. But the cylinder has an outer sleeve that remains in place to allow the cylinder to rotate around while ejecting the empties.

Look at the Forgotten Weapons video and you'll see what I mean. It is an interesting video in general. There were only about 3700 made including all three models. Army, Navy, and Police and only about 1000 of the army models with only a few of that thousand made in 44 Henry rimfire.

I think I'm going to have to find someone who has actually worked on one of these or find one of the two books on H&A. It doesn't have to come out. I'd just like to be able to clean it properly. I can clean the barrel into one of the cylinders and clean the cylinders through the loading gate. What I cant clean well with the cylinder in place is the cylinder window in the frame. I may just have to make some special cleaning tools for that task.

 

[Johnm1]

So far the bore and chambers are cleaning up well. The rifling is very strong and I have not revealed any pitting in either the bore or chambers. The bore has begun to reflect light. The chambers are still dark but have a smooth surface.

At this point I have to use an undersized brush (.410) to assure I don't get it stuck. I might be able to use a 44 caliber brush if I can find one short enough so that it makes it all the way into the chamber and can be reversed without getting stuck. I'm using Balistol as the solvent in deference to the nickle finish. It is soaking again right now.

 

[indy1919a4]

This is driving me nuts.. there has gots to be away of removing that cylinder.. But I have seen a couple places where people have asked the same thing with no response. (Thats what you get for buying rare firearms ). When you are in the mood would you mind posting a close up photo or two of inside of the frame when the ejection lever is out.

Hopkins and Allen pistols always impress.

 

[Johnm1]

This is driving me nuts.. there has gots to be away of removing that cylinder.. But I have seen a couple places where people have asked the same thing with no response. (Thats what you get for buying rare firearms ). When you are in the mood would you mind posting a close up photo or two of inside of the frame when the ejection lever is out.

Hopkins and Allen pistols always impress.

It is entirely possible that the design doesn't envision the cylinder being removed by the user. That would be a ding in my mind for the basic design. But consider that today we see the cylinder being removed for cleaning as normal, in 1877 what was the settled normal? Others were removable but that may not have been settled.

I'll do the best I can with pictures, I take terrible pictures. It would help if there were a diagram around, but I haven't seen one of those yet either.

I'm starting to read that the total number for all 3 models was 2700 but the 1000 Army models seems to be holding true.

 

[Johnm1]

Hopefully these pictures will help even though they are somewhat out of visual context. The first is looking into the center pin from the barrel. Here one can see that the cylinder has an inner bushing that the center pin goes inside.



This is looking in the rear with the hammer pulled all the way back. Here again we can see another pin (brownish in color) that appears to be mounted on the back of the cylinder. The picture doesn't really give the view that the pin is at the centerline of the cylinder, but it looks that way to me in person. I have to accept that I could be wrong.


I would think that the pin on the back of the cylinder was spring loaded and could be pushed forward to allow the cylinder to be removed. But currently that is just a guess. Actually a WAG and probably more hope then proof.

 

[indy1919a4]

From some other photos and yours..

What does that top smaller screw hold in place???

Great photos by the way..

 

[Johnm1]

The top smaller screw is the pivot screw/pin for the latch on the left side of the firearm that is pushed so you can pull the ejector rod out of the cylinder. It is spring loaded. It needs work as it doesn't currently retain the ejector rod.

The lower screw is the pivot screw/pin for the ejector arm. It too is spring loaded and is somewhat loose. I can see needing a shim/shims to tighten that joint up.

 

[Johnm1]

Picture with a little better light. Wish the finish were a little nicer but the bore and chambers cleaned up nicely.

 

[indy1919a4]

View attachment 967245

Picture with a little better light. Wish the finish were a little nicer but the bore and chambers cleaned up nicely.

That is a nice looking pistol, Looks like its a modern design VS 140+ year old design. Considering how bad that Nickle can wear that is not that bad. Infact that is pretty good.

 

[Johnm1]

Well, its clean at least as far as the bore and chambers are concerned. I'm going to have to figure out a tool to clean the frame window. I'm most concerned about the top strap and around the barrel stub into the frame.

I assumed that the grips were modern replacements. And they may well be as good as they look. But the serial number is scratched inside the left panel. Easily faked I suppose but if you look at the Forgotten Weapons video, those too look too good to be true. Maybe both are replacements or the originals just hold up really well.

 

[Johnm1]

As much as I want the cylinder to be easily removable, I'm beginning to think it is a lot more complicated than what we are used to today. Had a thought this morning when I woke up. Please bear with me as I don't have any pictures to go along with my words. I will do my best to draw a picture with my words. Consider that I am still guessing, so take whatever I have to say with a large grain of salt. Here are my thoughts:

The cylinder is hollow, like any other cylinder we are used to seeing, to permit the cylinder to rotate around a pin/rod.

The cylinder is placed in the frame window before the lockworks are installed in the handle of the gun

A long pin is driven in through the front of the frame and the hollowed portion of the cylinder all the way back to the rear of the frame where there is a hole to receive it and secure the cylinder to the frame at both the front and rear.

This long pin is hollowed out in the front to receive the ejector pin. What we have been calling the center pin.

So, in this picture of the front we can see the front of the cylinder pin inside the frame. It is the inner circle and has a hole in the center to accept the ejector rod.



In this picture, it is difficult to see, but below the firing pin hole is a darker roundish `thing` that I propose is the other end of the same pin we see from the front of the gun. This pin has fit through a hole in the frame.



I propose that the shape formed around the firing pin hole in the above picture is there to allow a gunsmith to mount a special tool that anchors to that shape and rotates/presses out the cylinder pin from the rear.

What say the professionals? Possible, plausible, that's it, or I'm dreaming?

 

[indy1919a4]

As much as I want the cylinder to be easily removable, I'm beginning to think it is a lot more complicated than what we are used to today. Had a thought this morning when I woke up. Please bear with me as I don't have any pictures to go along with my words. I will do my best to draw a picture with my words. Consider that I am still guessing, so take whatever I have to say with a large grain of salt. Here are my thoughts:

The cylinder is hollow, like any other cylinder we are used to seeing, to permit the cylinder to rotate around a pin/rod.

The cylinder is placed in the frame window before the lockworks are installed in the handle of the gun

A long pin is driven in through the front of the frame and the hollowed portion of the cylinder all the way back to the rear of the frame where there is a hole to receive it and secure the cylinder to the frame at both the front and rear.

This long pin is hollowed out in the front to receive the ejector pin. What we have been calling the center pin.

So, in this picture of the front we can see the front of the cylinder pin inside the frame. It is the inner circle and has a hole in the center to accept the ejector rod.

View attachment 967333

In this picture, it is difficult to see, but below the firing pin hole is a darker roundish `thing` that I propose is the other end of the same pin we see from the front of the gun. This pin has fit through a hole in the frame.

View attachment 967334

I propose that the shape formed around the firing pin hole in the above picture is there to allow a gunsmith to mount a special tool that anchors to that shape and rotates/presses out the cylinder pin from the rear.

What say the professionals? Possible, plausible, that's it, or I'm dreaming?

I will send an e-mail to the Hopkins & Allen company .. And if the Twilight zone is working, I will expect a response Tuesday..

 

[Johnm1]

I watched one of Rod Sterlings Twilight Zone episodes last night. It was fro 1957 I think. It’s funny how well that show holds up today. Minus the special effect that are possible today.

I stopped by my LGS with the intent of paying him for a safety inspection (I have no concerns about safety) to get his opinion on the cylinder. Unfortunately He was not in today.

 

[Armorer 101]

If you enlarge the picture of the front of the cylinder you can clearly see a catch (stamped numbers visible) on the right side of the frame, it is held in the closed position by the ejector rod crane being opened. Remove the frame front screw and the crane should come out and the catch on the right should remain open and the cylinder should come out.

There is another well worn screw below the cylinder pin hole that is probably the hinge for the keeper latch on the right side. All of this is based on the picture locations. You can clearly see the space around the center pin.

 

[Armorer 101]

If that center pin does not come out, see if you might be able to gently tap it out from the rear. There is a buggered up small pin looking spot in the rear frame hammer slot in the frame that might be the small turned end of the cylinder center pin. That cylinder pin could have a shoulder stop with a hole in the rear of the frame. Cock hammer full back, drive pin, drop hammer to half cock and pull center pin out, remove cylinder by rolling it with the hand, not against it. You will need the lock down and hand out of position.

 

[Johnm1]

I may be overthinking this. I'm known to do that.

I have been trying for an hour to get a picture of what I'm about to discuss but the below is the best I can do and uses extreme magnification.

If i assume that the centerpin is a single pin, it may be threaded into the frame at the front. The reason i say this is the top of the centerpin is relieved for what looks like a flat screwdriver. I have nothing that large to test that theory though. In the below photograph the relief is barely visible at the 8 and 2 o'clock positions. Not well, but I can see them clearly with my eyes.

 

[Johnm1]

If that center pin does not come out, see if you might be able to gently tap it out from the rear. There is a buggered up small pin looking spot in the rear frame hammer slot in the frame that might be the small turned end of the cylinder center pin. That cylinder pin could have a shoulder stop with a hole in the rear of the frame. Cock hammer full back, drive pin, drop hammer to half cock and pull center pin out, remove cylinder by rolling it with the hand, not against it. You will need the lock down and hand out of position.

You are seeing what I originally thought. Though to reach the pin from the back the lock works would have to be removed. I haven't given up on the idea that the pin is pressed in and would need to be pressed out.

 

[indy1919a4]

You are seeing what I originally thought. Though to reach the pin from the back the lock works would have to be removed. I haven't given up on the idea that the pin is pressed in and would need to be pressed out.

Now that is a tough call to play with that, it makes sense but, what if that latch breaks not a lot of parts out there.

 

[Johnm1]

Now that is a tough call to play with that, it makes sense but, what if that latch breaks not a lot of parts out there.

I'm not doing anything until I know more about it. Once I find 44-40 black powder cartridges, or gather the components, my plan is to soak the entire gun in a nickle safe solvent to clean out the nooks and crannies. That would be a lot of Balistol but would be safe and accomplish the cleaning task. Basic thought "Do no harm"


I may use my musket cleaning process using boiling water and get the metal hot enough to dry itself. Probably the soaking process though.

 

[Johnm1]

If you enlarge the picture of the front of the cylinder you can clearly see a catch (stamped numbers visible) on the right side of the frame, it is held in the closed position by the ejector rod crane being opened. Remove the frame front screw and the crane should come out and the catch on the right should remain open and the cylinder should come out.

There is another well worn screw below the cylinder pin hole that is probably the hinge for the keeper latch on the right side. All of this is based on the picture locations. You can clearly see the space around the center pin.

Although I haven't ruled anything out, I feel certain that the crane that holds the extractor rod nor the latch contribute anything in retaining the cylinder. Not that I have provided enough pictures so you can see the same thing I'm seeing. It would be so much easier if you could hold it in your hands.

 

[indy1919a4]

I'm not doing anything until I know more about it. Once I find 44-40 black powder cartridges, or gather the components, my plan is to soak the entire gun in a nickle safe solvent to clean out the nooks and crannies. That would be a lot of Balistol but would be safe and accomplish the cleaning task. Basic thought "Do no harm"


I may use my musket cleaning process using boiling water and get the metal hot enough to dry itself. Probably the soaking process though.

Buffalo arms I always thought was pretty fair. But I just looked and they are out.. (Of course why should they be any different)

 

[Armorer 101]

Ok, I see what you are seeing now and they probably are screw driver slots. But the latch/catch I was talking about keeps the pin from walking out. In your last picture the catch is right below the 2 o’clock slot notch. The worn screw, and hinge of the cylinder pin catch, is right at the bottom of your last picture. If you start to close the ejector rod crane slowly, you should see the catch start to retract. You will need to get it out of the way to try to unscrew the cylinder pin, when you do so.