Hornady 45 Colt Bullets in 45 ACP Cases?

[john16443]

A friend that no longer reloads gave me an older box of Hornady bullets. They are item# 4520 250 grain 45 Colt jacketed hollow points with soft lead tips. They appear to be very similar to the current 45 Colt 250 grain HP-XTP bullets #45200. I have two initial questions for the more experienced here. I currently reload jacketed or plated 230 grain RN (Zero or Berry's).

1) Can these bullets be loaded in 45ACP brass? My initial thoughts are yes as the bullet diameter is the same as most 45ACP lead bullets. My concerns are that this larger dia is for a jacketed bullet that may result in a casing bulge.

2) If yes, where would a prudent starting load be with Bullseye and W231 powders in a 45ACP casing? My observations tell me heavier bullet, less powder. I currently run 4.6g BE over the 230g RN Zero bullets, maybe starting at 4.0 grains? (I don't have access to my reloading manuals and tables right now, sorry)

Input from those more experienced is much appreciated. These would be fired out of the RIA 1911, 5" barrel.

Thanks;

John

 

[Walkalong]

I used to shoot Ranier 250 Gr bullets in .45 ACP after I sold my .45 Colt years ago. 5.0 Grs W-231. Worked just fine. If your gun will feed them, you can use them. Start low, work up.

 

[918v]

Yes, it's gonna bulge the case, mostly due to the deeper seating of the bullet base, but it should still chamber and fire.

 

[john16443]

One More Thing...

Thank you Gentlemen.

One thing I forgot to ask is related to seating depth My plan is to seat them so that the edge of the case just reaches the top of the crimp ring on the bullet and then apply my normal .470/.471 taper crimp. That would put me at about 1.21" COL, sound reasonable??

Thanks;

John

 

[PapaG]

Seat 'em just short enough that they'll fit in the magazine...then cycle a few to see if they feed. Assuming you're using a semi-auto.

I shoot 260 grain cast Keith swcs out of my 1911s, seating them so that a trace of shoulder shows past the case mouth. No feed problems and blows pins off the table like a sledgehammer and penetrates eight inches of dry pine boards. I use unique.

 

[john16443]

Yep, I'll be doing a plunk test and cycling a magazine full of dummies in my 1911 semi. BTY, here's a pic of what I'm working with.

0.645" overall bullet length, 0.330" from base to top of the crimp ring.

 

[918v]

As long as the bullet does not rub the magazine wall you should be OK.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep. Seat them short enough to fit the mag, and as long as you can and have them feed well.

 

[john16443]

I called Hornady this morning, they recommended that I NOT load these in the 45 ACP brass. His reasoning was:

A) I have no data to give you
B) It's a big heavy bullet and you won't get much velocity out of it
C) It's jacketed, and the pressure may be higher than with a 250 grain lead pinbuster because it isn't as 'slippery'.

Everyone here indicates that it shouldn't be a problem as long as it isn't loaded hot and it cycles through the mag and chamber. I think I'll build a few dummies to check cycling, and then build one live round at 3.9 grains Bullseye or 4.4 grains W231 and see what happens.

 

[918v]

I have load data for 250gr jacketed bullets at home. Not available here in the restroom. I'll post it later.

 

[Walkalong]

Speer shows data for 260 Gr in .45 ACP. It would be safe for 250 Gr.

 

[john16443]

918v - Could you tell me the diameter of those 250gr jacketed bullets you have?

Walkalong - I'll have to look at my Speer data in my One Book/One Caliber manual at home tonight. Want to see if that's for a jacketed or lead bullet.

I'm beginning to think this may not be a good idea trying to push a larger dia. jacketed bullet down the 1911 barrel. 0.452 works well for lead, but may not work for jacketed due to the hardness differences. I know the Berry's are plated and average 0.4515", but they are still softer than jacketed rounds.

Thanks to the folks that have indicated they load these heavyweights up, but it appears the great majority of these loads are for lead.

 

[Walkalong]

It is for jacketed bullets.

It is only 20 (yours) & 30 (Speer data) Grs more than 230, and it isn't like 230 Gr jacketed is living on the edge in .45 ACP.

 

[918v]

John,

Diameter and hardness has nothing to do with anything. I have data for the Hornady 250gr XTP and the Nosler 250gr JHP which are similar in length so they will take up the same amount of space inside the case.

Pey my Midway Load MAP, Bullseye starts at 3.5grs and maxes out at 5.4 grs at an OAL of 1.275". Now, I know for a fact that OAL will not fit in your magazine. A better OAL is 1.200" per Sierra and Speer which calls for a 5.2gr Max under a 260gr JHP.

So, if 5.2grs of Bullseye is Max under a 260gr JHP at an OAL of 1.200", you should be fine with your 250gr bullet. Speer says 5.4grs of 231 is min and 5.9grs is max under the 260 at 1.200". Midway says 6grs of 231 is max under the 250 at 1.275" OAL. Speer's data was developed in a Sig P220. Midway's data was developed in a test barrel. Use your best common sense.

 

[Walkalong]

Some load data. Use it at your own risk. Midway Load Map & Speer #13.

 

[john16443]

918v and Walkalong. Very much appreciate the information and data related to the 250+ grain bullets you've referenced. As I suspected and wanted to verify, this data from Speer and Midway Loadmap is for a TRUE 250gr 45 ACP bullet. If these are lead bullets, they are nominal 0.452" diameter. If they are jacketed, they are nominal 0.451" diameter.

Unfortunately, what I have in my possession are jacketed 45 COLT bullets with a nominal diameter of 0.452. That's why I believe that hardness is an issue as they are the diameter of lead (which is softer and deform in the barrel), but the hardness of jacketed which will not deform to the same extent in a barrel.

918v - Considering these diameter differences, please clarify further why you believe hardness has no bearing on this? I am asking from a wanting to learn and understand standpoint because I've only been doing this for 3 months, not questioning your knowledge or experience. I can understand how this would be true if my 45 Colts were .451, but I'm not convinced (yet) it wouldn't matter at .452".

Thanks - John

 

[918v]

A .001" difference in diameter is insignificant when you consider the bore and groove tolerances. Even if the bullets were solid copper it would not matter. Even if the bullets were solid copper and .454" in diameter there would not be a significant increase in pressure.

 

[rcmodel]

+1
.001" difference is not going to make any difference.

Consider that all bullets slug up or down to fit the bore to some extent.

Even more so in a magnum revolver, as they slug up to fit the cylinder chamber throats, and even more as they clear the cylinder face and slug back down in the forcing cone, then either up or down some more to fit the bore.

Regardless of all that, a .452" bullet will be a .451" bullet by the time it moves one bullet length in an auto-pistol barrel, if thats what it needs to be.

If you have ever resized bullets in a bullet sizing die, you might note that it takes very little force to change them several thousandths, no matter how hard an alloy is used, or how much too big they start out.

Compared to actual chamber pressure in a firearm, it is but a tiny fraction of the chamber pressure.

rc

 

[zeke]

even 454 diam in jacketed doesn't make a significant difference? Gonna politely disagree, especially loading a 45 acp with 250 grain jacketed bullet, minimal space for fast burning powder.

 

[918v]

You can disagree all you want. The pope disagreed with Copernicus too.