Horror story - need feedback, please!

[Preacherman]

I saw something last night that really amazed me, and I need help with explanations.

I dropped in at my local gunshop to get a cup of coffee and bat the breeze (a favorite occupation with several regulars - the BS sessions in there are something to hear! ). While there, the owner (and gunsmith) brought out a H&R Topper 12ga. shotgun, with a rather strange problem of lead streaking in the barrel. He showed it to us, and asked us what we thought was causing the problem.

We tried all sorts of guesses, but couldn't come up with any answers. The streaks were much thicker and heavier than would normally be caused by shot.

The owner then told us that this shotgun had been brought in by a very elderly gentleman for a cleanup after deer season. This guy explained that he found shotgun slugs to be a bit "low-powered" for whitetail ( !!! ), and so his practice was to load blackpowder .45-70 ammo, with cast lead bullets, into the chamber. He claimed he wrapped them in masking tape to get them to fit. Apparently sometimes they weren't aimed straight down the bore - hence the lead streaks in the barrel.

We were aghast at the stupidity, and quite frankly disbelieved the story: but the owner assured us that he wasn't making this up.

My question: I know that blackpowder loads are low-pressure compared to smokeless powder. However, in a .45-70 loading, they must surely be at a considerably higher pressure than shotshells, right? How, then, could the breech (and break-open action) of a H&R Topper withstand the pressures? Is this story feasible?

Over to you guys...

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, in the first place, a .458" bullet is not going to seal in much of the pressure in a .729" shotgun barrel. About all it gets will be the initial ploop of the black powder igniting in the taped .45-70 cartridge. I really doubt he was getting as great power out of his invention as from a common 12 ga slug.

In the second place, H&R has made all sorts of rifles and combination guns on the Topper action. It is stronger than it looks.

 

[Badger Arms]

I have it on good authority they even make a 45/70 version... a friend has one. My feeling on the whole thing is that the guy was full of crap or lying to himself. You'd get little velocity at best. The bullet would pop out of the case under pressure and the black powder would immediately bypass the half sized slug and pop out the front of the barrel. It's sorta like chucking the bullet at the deer with your hand and then firing a blank. Dangerous... yeah, but not that much. Since you aren't REALLY sealing the chamber (that's the job of the brass) any pressure will surely sneak through the masking tape. There really isn't that much pressure in an open-air 47/70 ignition though.

Horror story? Yes. This guy should not be playing with anything that isn't padded or pre-chewed.

 

[Mike Irwin]

H&R recently brought out a .45-70 version based on the Topper (as well as one chambered for .38-55).

A friend picked one up at a gunshow recently. About $385.

I was VERY tempted by the one I saw on a table in .38-55 for about $360.

Decently made guns, but I didn't like the stock to action fit at all.

 

[keeperofthehills]

this one smells a little fishy to me.

But ...

ive heard horror stories from old timers (ie my grandfather, god rest his soul) about "ringing" shot gun shells. the practice of taking a knife and cutting deep enough to weaken the case but not for it to seperate. thus upon igniton the entire visible paper (old timers) part of the cartrige would not open and would leave the barrel as a whole

 

[Poodleshooter]

Ringing the shell just under the undershot wad-the poor man's Glaser safety slug.
[shudder]

 

[only1asterisk]

Chamber pressure for a black powder 45-70 is about double that of a 12ga
BUT thats in a rifle chamber where the bullet slams into the rifling before you reach peak pressure.

Jim, you are right about these break open guns being stonger than they look, but I think the rifles are built on a stronger, reinforced receiver.


David

 

[Jim Watson]

I am sure the current production H&R singles in calibers up to .270 are on stronger actions than the shotguns, but suspect the '70's Shikaris in .44 Mag and .45-70 were on shotgun actions. They probably depended on the fact that the breechface thrust of a .45-70 was not much different from a 12 gauge due to the smaller diameter of the rifle caseheads. Pounds per square inch of chamber pressure times square inches of casehead.

 

[Rupestris]

The following is taken from the H&R/NEF barrel accessory program page:

Rifle frames may be fitted with additional rifle, shotgun, and muzzleloader barrels.
Shotgun frames may be fitted with additional shotgun and muzzleloader barrels only.

I don't know if the same holds true with older models.

 

[Cooter Brown]

My thoughts...

the "old guy" probably shot .45-70's ammo in a .410. That does work. I have used .410 shot shells, slugs and the new 3-pellet buckshot in my original 1902 Remington rolling block .45-70 over the past 40 years with great success. I don't think that I'd want to go the other way (i.e., .45-70 rifle ammo in a .410 gun), but it might be ok; but, the accuracy surely would be lousy.