House clearing
- Thread starter The Unknown User
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The problem is that the bad guy in a room clearing situation is in E-4forever's position. His only goal is to ambush the guy that's coming after him. It gets worse because you do have others to worry about, which makes positive identification of any possible threats a must. All he has to do is sit still, catch your movement and start shooting. You have to a enter room, find him, positively identify him, and only after that can you start shooting. Even with a major skill set advantage and phenomenal reaction speed, you're screwed if he's a halfway decent shot.
For whatever reason, you may believe you have to do a room clearing. But, if you do run into someone willing to kill during one of your sweeps, you're in a heap of trouble.
Video games are excellent illustrations of this. Room clearing dark single entrance rooms without suppressive fire or grenades is the next best thing to impossible due to the difference in visual processing times between attacker and defender.
JMusic
member
Normaly I don't get involved in house clearing discusions but here's my take.
1. You will never be more familure with an area than you are your own home, use that to your advantage.
2. Stay in stealth mode. You are the hunter move slowly in most area's and listen.
3. You know where your valuables are kept be it a life or material object.
4. Think about what you are abandoning when you venture out.
5. If you have called the cops then there is just one more man with a gun
they have to deal with.
6. Do not depend on a light, use it sparringly. Lights will tell the BG where you are coming from.
7. It can be done but NO proffesional organization teaches one man clearing techniques. There's probably a reason for that.
Jim
1. You will never be more familure with an area than you are your own home, use that to your advantage.
2. Stay in stealth mode. You are the hunter move slowly in most area's and listen.
3. You know where your valuables are kept be it a life or material object.
4. Think about what you are abandoning when you venture out.
5. If you have called the cops then there is just one more man with a gun
they have to deal with.
6. Do not depend on a light, use it sparringly. Lights will tell the BG where you are coming from.
7. It can be done but NO proffesional organization teaches one man clearing techniques. There's probably a reason for that.
Jim
Is it even wise to clear, legally?
My instructor gave a story about a guy in Florida (with castle laws and all) that got convicted of murder when he went TOWARD a break-in in progress and shot a burglar inside his garage. Basically the jury said he should have hunkered down and called LEO. Something about the Castle Law not being about protecting property and he went "searching" for trouble.
Personally I think that's bull, you should be able to protect your entire house instead of cowering in a closet while the BGs clean out your possessions!
My instructor gave a story about a guy in Florida (with castle laws and all) that got convicted of murder when he went TOWARD a break-in in progress and shot a burglar inside his garage. Basically the jury said he should have hunkered down and called LEO. Something about the Castle Law not being about protecting property and he went "searching" for trouble.
Personally I think that's bull, you should be able to protect your entire house instead of cowering in a closet while the BGs clean out your possessions!
Look man, noboby said anything about a garage. A garage may or may not be considered part of the house for castle doctrine purposes. Besides, without knowing all the story, you don't even know what else might have been in play even if the instructor had the story correct.
It really takes at least 6, two for threat left (door), two for threat right and two for long/support. Yet most agencies rarely send more than two guys. Who walk around the house, shine their maglights at the windows, then call 911 to have the homeowner step out front.
In the dedicated-trained-bad-guy-who-breaks-into-the-home-and-hides-quietly-to-ambush-you scenario that you guys keep mentioning, you are still in great danger (meaning dead if this dedicated bad guys wants to kill you) on the way out of the house. The other option is replacing a door every few weeks.
Grenades? That is why military MOUT training is useless for non-military encounters. I had it too, in the late 80s (I know the doctrines may have changed some by now), and it doesn't prepare you at all for law enforcement/self defense tactics.
Pax Jordana
Member
Everybody at my place sleeps upstairs. For surprise ninja attacks, my CCW sleeps underneath my bed. For regular joe type breakins, the mossberg and I are holding out at the top of the stairs.
But then, I've only two doors into my place, and one staircase each going up and down off the first floor. For me, that makes all of five places I have to check out before I know for sure who's doing what where.
But then, I've only two doors into my place, and one staircase each going up and down off the first floor. For me, that makes all of five places I have to check out before I know for sure who's doing what where.
Look under furniture before looking behind it. I like to quickly peek around doorways from a kneeling or prone position or if a chair is available from the top of the doorway. Use a powerful flashlight like the Surefire that you can quickly blink on and off, to shoot by and to blind the bad guy. At the close range inside a house the first round will illuminate the target enough for a more accurate second shot on the quick double tap. Remember you and the bad guy can shoot through the doors and walls and through the floors and ceilings in a two story house or a house with a basement. If a family try to have a drill set up for this and a safe or secure room. If you can afford it a system with cameras throughout the house and a central monitoring system and lighting system would possibly work, but then you run into privacy issues, who wants a bedroom or bathroom monitored by a hidden camera that might be on or off. It's true dogs are a man's best friend!
shadowalker
Member
For a computer savvy bad guy it is far easier and far safer to just steal identities / credit card numbers and make money that way, the prosecution rate is so low they are very unlikely to face any jail time and almost guaranteed not to get shot
.With a properly configured network the cameras shouldn't be a problem. Where you would run into problems is with insecure remote camera access software, putting the cameras in front of the router / firewall or with setting up unauthenticated port forwarding directly to your unauthenticated cameras.
Most people have routers that sit between the Internet and the home network and they do a good job of masking the devices on the home side of the network. Google is generally only an aide to them if you have your cameras exposed (bad idea) or are using default passwords on your network devices.
If you are using wireless cameras you have a potential threat if someone is within a couple hundred feet particularly if they are the type of cameras that just broadcast unencrypted video on a particular frequency, if you are using wireless cameras that have authentication you can reduce the threat.
The newer 802.11 g cameras using WPA behind a router are going to be fairly secure, there are ways to cause WPA encrypted connections to shutdown but if your bad guy is that advanced you have other problems.
The vast majority of houses don't have the cameras so they would have to have specific knowledge that they are there or probe for them which while easy probably isn't that likely, then they would have to take the time to disrupt them and hope they aren't discovered while they are doing that.
Unless you have them setup with motion detection they aren't really a problem to the bad guy unless you are looking for him in which case he already has trouble.
Before you clear . . .
1) Make sure your home is difficult to break into. New locks, sturdy doors, and windows that are locked and safetycoated. Motion activated lights covering areas an intruder might like to use and an alarm system aren't bad ideas, either. The point is not to make your house impossible to break into, the point is to make your house very hard to break into quietly. This way you'll have at least some warning that there's a problem. Most houses, if you hear a funny noise it could be anything. In your house, you want an intruder to activate lights in the yard, kick your door three or four times and then set off the alarm. At that point, you KNOW there's a problem.
2) Arm yourself. A home invasion will be fast, and you may have only seconds to be ready. You won't need to worry about clearing techniques, because it'll be the bad guys using them against you. However, 99.9% of noises are not a gang of jacked up psychopaths coming to kill you. That's why step 3 is . . .
3) Wait a moment. Plenty of groggy homeowners have shot down neighborhood drunks who wandered into the wrong house (maybe through an unlocked door or one that was easy to break down). Plenty more have shot their own kids, sneaking in late at night. Waiting not only improves your reactions, it gives you a chance to assess the situation. If you wait for 30 seconds and don't hear anything else, there's a better chance it's nothing. Two to four guys breaking into your house are going to have a hard time remaining totally unnoticed - especially if you followed rule 1 and made it hard to do in the first place. If your wait reveals nothing of interest, then go to . . .
4) Secure your communications. Maybe you'll call 911 at this point - especially if your lights have been tripped or your alarm is going off. Maybe you'll just grab the cell phone. If you're going to clear solo, even though you are pretty sure there's a problem, you'll want to call 911 first. If you get shot or stabbed there's at least some chance that you'll still be alive when help comes. If you leave the phone behind and get jacked, you're going to have to hope that you aren't finished off by your assailant, and that you live long enough to call 911 and for help to come to you.
You can do all of this without attending a single tactical school or even lifting a screwdriver (if you're willing to pay your locksmith, etc). If you're handy, much of this can be done for pretty low cost.
If you've prepared your home in advance, the odds are burglars will leave it alone. Those that don't will almost certainly give you plenty of warning by setting off your alarm, or bashing away at your doors and windows. Armed with that knowledge, you can call 911 with a .45 in your hand and the decision to clear or not is totally up to you.
1) Make sure your home is difficult to break into. New locks, sturdy doors, and windows that are locked and safetycoated. Motion activated lights covering areas an intruder might like to use and an alarm system aren't bad ideas, either. The point is not to make your house impossible to break into, the point is to make your house very hard to break into quietly. This way you'll have at least some warning that there's a problem. Most houses, if you hear a funny noise it could be anything. In your house, you want an intruder to activate lights in the yard, kick your door three or four times and then set off the alarm. At that point, you KNOW there's a problem.
2) Arm yourself. A home invasion will be fast, and you may have only seconds to be ready. You won't need to worry about clearing techniques, because it'll be the bad guys using them against you. However, 99.9% of noises are not a gang of jacked up psychopaths coming to kill you. That's why step 3 is . . .
3) Wait a moment. Plenty of groggy homeowners have shot down neighborhood drunks who wandered into the wrong house (maybe through an unlocked door or one that was easy to break down). Plenty more have shot their own kids, sneaking in late at night. Waiting not only improves your reactions, it gives you a chance to assess the situation. If you wait for 30 seconds and don't hear anything else, there's a better chance it's nothing. Two to four guys breaking into your house are going to have a hard time remaining totally unnoticed - especially if you followed rule 1 and made it hard to do in the first place. If your wait reveals nothing of interest, then go to . . .
4) Secure your communications. Maybe you'll call 911 at this point - especially if your lights have been tripped or your alarm is going off. Maybe you'll just grab the cell phone. If you're going to clear solo, even though you are pretty sure there's a problem, you'll want to call 911 first. If you get shot or stabbed there's at least some chance that you'll still be alive when help comes. If you leave the phone behind and get jacked, you're going to have to hope that you aren't finished off by your assailant, and that you live long enough to call 911 and for help to come to you.
You can do all of this without attending a single tactical school or even lifting a screwdriver (if you're willing to pay your locksmith, etc). If you're handy, much of this can be done for pretty low cost.
If you've prepared your home in advance, the odds are burglars will leave it alone. Those that don't will almost certainly give you plenty of warning by setting off your alarm, or bashing away at your doors and windows. Armed with that knowledge, you can call 911 with a .45 in your hand and the decision to clear or not is totally up to you.
littledoc
Member
"Clearing rooms solo is a fool's game. Although as this thread shows, many are eager to play."
By extension does that make us fools? Many feel it is foolish to sit and wait for help that may or may not come when you have the means to solve the problem at your disposal.
I am not one of them, though. Circumstances dictate tactics.
Why is checking out the house a fools game? Is it because you might get hurt? Yeah, so what? You expect somebody else to do it for you who probably doesn't have the training for it and has no personal stakes in the outcome, except for going home at the end of the shift. Especially when the responding deputy may be an aquaintance, if not a friend. I will not have him do what I won't. The primary responsibility for your family is yours, not the police department's.
By extension does that make us fools? Many feel it is foolish to sit and wait for help that may or may not come when you have the means to solve the problem at your disposal.
I am not one of them, though. Circumstances dictate tactics.
Why is checking out the house a fools game? Is it because you might get hurt? Yeah, so what? You expect somebody else to do it for you who probably doesn't have the training for it and has no personal stakes in the outcome, except for going home at the end of the shift. Especially when the responding deputy may be an aquaintance, if not a friend. I will not have him do what I won't. The primary responsibility for your family is yours, not the police department's.
JMusic
member
You know doc, I have no problem with that logic as long as you know where your prioritys lay. Who's to say the cop showing up would be as skilled as you are? If this is your first time though you have to realize that usually is your worst run.
If I had family or friends at home that would be my priority. If not and I knew someone was in the house I would call the cops. If I didn't and just heard a noise I'd squirrel hunt in the dark .
Jim
If I had family or friends at home that would be my priority. If not and I knew someone was in the house I would call the cops. If I didn't and just heard a noise I'd squirrel hunt in the dark
.Jim
Macpherson
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While I pray that I wouldn't have to do this anytime, if I had kids I would not be barricading up in the bedroom to wait for the BG, but neither would I go tromping through the house. Most of the scenarios posted here are so unlikely that I wouldn't even factor them in when thinking about tactics. If the BG's intent is just to kill you/everyone in the house, he's going to bust down the bedroom door and you will be dead before you wake up let alone touch a weapon. They are not going to lie in wait for you to arm yourself and go looking for them, period. If the BG really IS waiting somewhere in the house for you, there's not a whole lot you can do, other than put on a vest and hope you're a faster/better/luckier shot. I would recommend getting a vest anyway; if you are going into that situation why not stack the odds in your favor?
The most likely scenario is that the perp thinks the house is empty and is looking for valuables, or the perp is drunk/high and doesn't care if the house is empty, but is still looking for valuables, not to hurt someone. In either case, they are going to be making noise, so be quiet and listen for them. Time is on your side, not the intruder's, so take it slow and move as quietly as possible. You know the terrain, so use stealth to your advantage. Dynamic clearing works for teams, but clearing solo means you have to keep a low profile and engage on your terms. Have a light ready to blind the BG, but don't use it until absolutely necessary; a bright light will be visible from almost anywhere in the house and will immediately alert any invader to your location.
The most likely scenario is that the perp thinks the house is empty and is looking for valuables, or the perp is drunk/high and doesn't care if the house is empty, but is still looking for valuables, not to hurt someone. In either case, they are going to be making noise, so be quiet and listen for them. Time is on your side, not the intruder's, so take it slow and move as quietly as possible. You know the terrain, so use stealth to your advantage. Dynamic clearing works for teams, but clearing solo means you have to keep a low profile and engage on your terms. Have a light ready to blind the BG, but don't use it until absolutely necessary; a bright light will be visible from almost anywhere in the house and will immediately alert any invader to your location.
littledoc
Member
We have a winner!!
JMusic, I don't claim to have any great skills, but I also realize that anyone who has successfully cleared a fun house probably is better skilled than the average officer who will show up when you call 911. I don't mean to knock any peace officers out there, but gunfighting is not the main concern of an academy. Generally, the only cops who get this type of training belong to a high speed unit or they pay for it out of their own pocket and go to a private school.
Your brain is your primary weapon. Every situation is fluid and you need to be able to think on your feet to adapt. Mindset trumps skills.
After the last post I had a vision of some people trying to blindly clear each room while they went looking for the noise in the kitchen. Now I see where some people are coming from when they advise against it. Without the proper mindset a person would be better served waiting for the police. Thanks Macpherson for explaining what I did not.
This is not bravado on my part. If I came home and the front door is broken open and no one else is home, I ain't going in there. I have no pressing reason to do so. There are other scenarios where the same would apply.
JMusic, I don't claim to have any great skills, but I also realize that anyone who has successfully cleared a fun house probably is better skilled than the average officer who will show up when you call 911. I don't mean to knock any peace officers out there, but gunfighting is not the main concern of an academy. Generally, the only cops who get this type of training belong to a high speed unit or they pay for it out of their own pocket and go to a private school.
Your brain is your primary weapon. Every situation is fluid and you need to be able to think on your feet to adapt. Mindset trumps skills.
After the last post I had a vision of some people trying to blindly clear each room while they went looking for the noise in the kitchen. Now I see where some people are coming from when they advise against it. Without the proper mindset a person would be better served waiting for the police. Thanks Macpherson for explaining what I did not.
This is not bravado on my part. If I came home and the front door is broken open and no one else is home, I ain't going in there. I have no pressing reason to do so. There are other scenarios where the same would apply.
theken206
Member
Ive heard it said before on THR and I would suggest it myself.
One of those universal light remotes thingamajigbobbers would come in pretty hand IMO.
Nothing like turning on the kitchen where you heard that loud noise light when your combat crouched in the hallway or the like in the dark out of sight.
One of those universal light remotes thingamajigbobbers would come in pretty hand IMO.
Nothing like turning on the kitchen where you heard that loud noise light when your combat crouched in the hallway or the like in the dark out of sight.
Back in 2002 a member of the South African Police Flying Squad gave me and a friend of mine a very useful introduction to room clearing. The instruction took place at a range that consisted of 'rooms' made of stacked tyres, allowing for 360 degree fire within. We spent a day on that range and I filmed some of it. Targets were put up in the rooms in random places (sometimes he left a room empty but put two targets in the next room). I'll see if I can get some pictures out of my archives.
Now there are various things that came to light after that day training with the guy, who is a highly-skilled individual. I won't go in to all the details, but here is my conclusion:
Don't go room clearing, unless there is something in a particular room that you absolutely, positively, HAVE to get to (like a kid). I fared pretty well on the course, but that was the best case scenario. There was no furniture, no threat, nothing to lose (other than shooting the camera man
).
There were enough screw-ups on my part even in that mildly adrenaline-tinged course, to indicate that a room clearing expedition at home would not be a wise move.
I say sit tight with the shotgun and wait for developments. If you have to clear a room, then get only what you need to and go back to safety.
Some of you need to spend time amongst the tyres, to see what I mean.
Now there are various things that came to light after that day training with the guy, who is a highly-skilled individual. I won't go in to all the details, but here is my conclusion:
Don't go room clearing, unless there is something in a particular room that you absolutely, positively, HAVE to get to (like a kid). I fared pretty well on the course, but that was the best case scenario. There was no furniture, no threat, nothing to lose (other than shooting the camera man
).There were enough screw-ups on my part even in that mildly adrenaline-tinged course, to indicate that a room clearing expedition at home would not be a wise move.
I say sit tight with the shotgun and wait for developments. If you have to clear a room, then get only what you need to and go back to safety.
Some of you need to spend time amongst the tyres, to see what I mean.
The Canuck
Member
Welcome to tire-town Odd Job! When we did our room to room training, we did it in teams and then solo, just to keep us grounded. First few times none of us made it out in the allotted time. Only three of us made it to the bell still "alive".
I'll say this, CQB sucks.
I'll say this, CQB sucks.
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WeThePeople
Member
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I admit freely that in many cases I would have been taken out while trying to clear a 'room' whether it was with the shotgun or the pistol (we did both, as a matter of routine).
Reasons for failure on my part (according to the parameters of the course I did) were:
1) Too long to acquire target (especially if 'he' was against the wall on the doorway side). I'm talking going in alone here.
2) Failure to keep the shotgun pointed at the doorway while reloading in a cleared room. After you've been holding it level with one hand for a while, you get a bit of 'droop' setting in
3) Short cycling (usually if I saw two targets).
4) Offering too large a target upon coming around the corner.
5) Advertising a free shotgun. (Target could 'see' the muzzle before seeing me).
Something interesting: on the last two runs, he asked us to clear the 'rooms' and report back about any items that were out of place there. Of 6 or 7 items placed there, we missed at least half. Just didn't see them. The worst was a bright red cigarette lighter, at eye level with nice black and grey tyres for a background. I just didn't see it. I was looking for cards and must have developed a bit of tunnel vision.
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