How Best to Ensure Instructor Standards?

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El Tejon

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This topic came up in another thread wherein I witnessed the instructor of a beginners' class demonstrate atrocious weapon handling skills.

What can we as the collectively and individually inside the gun culture do ensure high standards among those that would teach neophytes? As the number of states that recognize CCW grow I have noticed instant or shake n bake instructors who lack in their own skills jumping up and "teaching" others.

How do we best ensure that instructors who teach new shooters actually know what they are doing?
 
Tell the management that we expect proper safety to be demonstrated at all times. Tell the management and those present when it isn't.
 
I really don't know. A piece of paper from a group or an individual is no guarantee of competance. The number of people who can't teach who have certifications from various groups is ample proof of that.

It's one thing to have the skills. It's another thing altogether to be able to pass them on to someone else. I've seen people who were great shooters and tacticians operationally who couldn't teach someone else to open a pack of gum.

Another problem is that in many cases the state doesn't set a very high standard for who can teach a CCW course.

I think that the only real way to keep high standards is to expose the posers and fools and let the market decide.

Teaching is a totally seperate skill from shooting. An instructor has to be able to do both. The instructor who can demonstrate what he needs his student to accomplish and knows how to pass that information on, but who might not be the best shot in town, is better at his job then the instructor who is the best shot in the local area and could put on a shooting demonstration that would have everyone ohhing and ahhing in wonder, but can't explain what he does to make those fantastic shots.

I say when we find a boob or a poser, we put the word out.

Jeff
 
How can I judge even myself?

I am approaching retirement age. I do not wish to simply vegetate when I do. I have thought of teaching CCW classes, perhaps as a community service. I am not an expert -- I will never really be -- but I would like to be competent at, at least, the basic level.

How can I judge when I am ready? The standards required need to be specifically laid out. But by whom?
 
yeah, i think it's a matter of perspective and expectations. i mean, i don't expect the same level of instruction when i go to my local CCW class as i do when i go to thunder ranch.

i'm not interested in antagonizing the local boobs as long as they're not doing anything blatantly unsafe. and by "unsafe" i don't mean suggesting inappropriate equipment and calibers to n00b students, or bad mall ninja tactics.

i think we're better off reminding people that as in every other area of life, there is a continuum of quality and encourage people to educate themselves, not just listen to a single goober.

edit: because there's a serious lack of QUALITY instruction out there, and mediocre instruction is better than no instruction
 
taliv,
There is a lack of quality instruction because there isn't a demand for it. A police officer who puts himself in harms way has a very low probabilty of ever having to use a firearm in the line of duty. A CCW holder has even less of a chance.

This comment will be near and dear to friend El Tejon's heart, but until there is enough litigation revolving around inadequate training for civilian defensive use of firearms, we probably won't see a demand for quality instruction. Most law enforcement use of force training is driven by a need to protect the agency from litigation. Officer safety has very little to do with the kind and amount of training the admin types will pay for.

Perhaps when some of these bozos end up in court for not providing adequate instruction they'll improve.

Jeff
 
jeff, yep. i totally concur.

i'm just saying if you set standards high enough that people like yourself will respect the trainers... you're only going to have a handful of trainers qualify. so like you say, for civilian ccw, maybe the relatively low NRA standards are good enough. or maybe there are some specific deficiencies.

perhaps, to your earlier point, a deficiency in the NRA certification is that it focuses on firearm knowledge, and lacks enough training component. so add a couple speech classes to it or something.
 
We're having a crack down in this state. Thank goodness. A lot of instructors losing their certs.

It is easy to become a state certified instructor. We even had people who were actually teaching the Utah CCW clas ONLINE! No testing. No personal interaction. Nothing. Just pay me. Go to this webpage. Here's you stamp. Carry a gun.

I don't think paper is the answer. Anybody can complete certifications. Doesn't mean you can teach.

I've heard so much crap from people that they got from their instructors. It is absolutely mind blowing. Misconceptions, outright lies, exagerations, bad legal advice, and a whole lot of macho posturing.

When I took my CCW class, the instructor spent about 15 minutes on use of force laws. Then he showed a video from the early 80s. Very basic. And I would actually say that he did a better job than most of the instructors I've heard of.

I spend two hours on of force. Including role playing, and a laser judgemental simulator whenever possible.

I push through the required Handgun 101 stuff as fast as possible, and I've come to the point where I really don't care about the range session. (not required in Utah). I think knowledge of when to shoot, is 100% more important than if they can stand on a square range and punch paper.
 
I agree with you on almost everything I have read el tejon, but here I differ.
Our school teachers go to college, and spend years learning to teach. we still get history teachers telling us that the second amendment is for the national guard. We get english teachers that can not use proper grammar themselves. we get substitute teachers that have to teach every course in the school, with no specialized knowledge. They learned to teach, but they do not know their subject.

Personally, I would like to see this subject go away. From my viewpoint a good instructor would be great. He could teach newbies gun handling, and laws on lethal force, and sound tactics, and safety. So, all rolled into one, we need a committed gun nut, a lawyer, a swat trained person, and a safety nut. (I can not afford him.)

Also, from my view point I consider this to be an invasion of our right to keep and bear arms. I will accept substandard teachers, working for substandard wages, rather than raise the standards where we can hire real experts and make the required training price increase to the point where ANYONE can not afford it.

If someone is paying for a gun safety course for his education, and safety, I approve of your viewpoint. (Those people will be looking to Thunder Ranch, and First Sight, anyway) If he is doing it to get his permit to excersize his second amendment right, I think we should allow the teachers to be stupid and cheap.

My reasoning is that most applicants will be experienced shooters anyway. And they are not there to learn, they just want to apply for a permission slip from the government.
 
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KS necktie said: "If he is doing it to get his permit to excersize his second amendment right, I think we should allow the teachers to be stupid and cheap.

My reasoning is that most applicants will be experienced shooters anyway. And they are not there to learn, they just want to apply for a permission slip from the government."



Sorry, but I totally disagree with your comments. Sure we would ALL love to have Vermont CCW, but unless you live in Alaska then most of us don't, so we have to adapt to what our state laws currently are. I'd rather adapt than go about my day unarmed.

Here in Ohio, we are required 10 hours classroom plus 2 hours range time. As an instructor, I take my task to be very seriously and will NEVER cut corners for anyone. (no that wasn't part of your statement). I am neither stupid or cheap. Not nearly the most expensive, but my instructing partner and I instruct a quality program, and I'm a firm believer in that you get what you pay for. So, I guess I find your statement rather insulting to say the least.

And then your statement about most applicants being experienced and are not there to learn, is false. We are finding about 33% of our classes are very experienced shooters, the rest are beginners or limited at best. But if teaching a quality class, even those experienced will at least get enjoyment and something out of the class.
 
Having had good and bad instructors, I see multiple problems at work when it comes to bad instruction.

1. Many simply cannot teach very well, either because they never learned well, never learned to teach well, or can't comprehend the how to explain that which they may know implicitly.

2. Those certified to be instructors are often certified based on being able to demonstrate knowledge and skills taught to them, but not based on the ability to teach said information to others. Somewhere in the process, apparently, it is assumed that if you can do it and you know the material, then you can impart that information effectively. This simply is not the case.

3. Attitude issues. Gun instruction seems to be a power issue for many folks and they get the idea of running classes like a drill instructor.

I don't know about this last facet, but I think the first two could be addressed if classes for instructors involved not only the actual gun material, but also lessons on how to teach the material. There is a gulf between the difference of "Let me show you how to do it" and "Let me teach you how to do it."

Also, instructors need to learn how to deal with problematic students (those who may be slower in grasping newly learned information or who have trouble translating verbal instruction into physical behavior changes, such as in trying to overcome flinch, for example). In teaching shooting skills, I have watched poor instructors get as frustrated with the student's performance as the student is with his/her inability to hit the target. Once the instructor reaches a frustration point like that, then the instructor isn't likely to impart much helpful information. Good instructors have either learned or were taught to deal with such students and work with them in constructive manners, not showing frustration with the student.

Of course, teaching instructors on how to teach would take an instructor's course that might only run a few days and require it to run considerably longer.
 
taliv said;
i'm just saying if you set standards high enough that people like yourself will respect the trainers... you're only going to have a handful of trainers qualify. so like you say, for civilian ccw, maybe the relatively low NRA standards are good enough. or maybe there are some specific deficiencies.

I'm not the kind of person who thinks I have to spend my training time with a Tier 1 instructor or school for my time to be productive. I believe that you can learn something from just about anyone. I'm not familiar with the NRA instructor program so I can't comment on how adequate or inadequate it is. I've attended training conducted by some graduates of the NRA LE instructor programs that was quite good. Then again I attended a patrol rifle course back in 1998 by an NRA LE instructor that was awful. The instructor knew his subject, but he was plainly uncomfortable presenting it.

I've never attended any training from an NRA instructor who was not a graduate of their LE instructor program so I really can't comment on those programs.

I have a friend and brother officer who's a graduate of the University of Illinois Police Training Institute's Master Firearms Instructor Program. I believe it's a six week program now. He can shoot. But he still can't teach well. I think some people just don't have the right personality to convey information.

When I was in the Army I went to three formal Instructor Training Courses over the years. These courses were strictly on how to teach, how to deal with the different personality types you would encounter and had enough time in front of a class to make us comfortable doing it. Those courses were not subject specific. I think a couse like that would weed out those aspiring instructors who just don't have it in them to present the information.

ksnecktieman said,
Personally, I would like to see this subject go away. From my viewpoint a good instructor would be great. He could teach newbies gun handling, and laws on lethal force, and sound tactics, and safety. So, all rolled into one, we need a committed gun nut, a lawyer, a swat trained person, and a safety nut. (I can not afford him.)

I disagree. A CCW instructor doesn't need to be all those things. We're teaching people the ins and outs of carrying deadly force in modern society. Despite what many members post here about what their role as a CCW holder is, they dont need to know Close Quarter Battle, be qualified to clerk for a Supreme Court Justice or be able to re-enact the scene "Hey homie, is that my briefcase" scene from Collateral. They need to know when the can shoot, when they can't shoot, when they can display their weapon, how to shoot well enough that they aren't a danger to themselves or others and how to manipulate their weapon. That's it. They don't have to have any more training then that. Of course some states require more and some states require little or no training.

Let's face it, in states where training is required and certification as an instructor is easy to get, it's going to be a cash cow for the unscrupulous gun people out there. I do think that a few liability judgements against them will do wonders for making the profession clean itself up.

Jeff
 
How about getting a handgun maker to underwrite a free-to-the-consumer DVD on why to seek training, what to look for in training, and what to look for in a trainer.

That way when someone buys a gun they can take the DVD home and get enough education to weed out bad trainers. It could also be given out for free to anyone who is curious about these issues.

A panel of recognized experts would go through what the levels of training are, what a trainer should be able to do, and red flags that the trainer may not be competent or truthful.

This disc should also dispel some of the more common myths surrounding handguns, their use in defense, and general legal issues i.e. a what-not-to-do list (drag the corpse into the house etc.).

In addition the DVD would have the URL of a site where known, quality, trainers are listed by state and type of training.

This would not make bad trainers go away but it would provide a way for people to find the good ones.

So what would be the first step in making this happen?
 
Jeff? I would like to see anyone allowed to carry a gun have my abilities or better. I think I am above competent. Are you? Would you consider me competent? Would I consider you competent? Does it matter to you? I will accept competence to carry, keltec .32 at fourteen ounces or a .50 barrett at multiple pounds. I am 57 yearsa ols, and I would be lucky to even SEE a
target above one hundred yards. should I try to limit you? Should you limit me because all I want is a plastic belly gun?

Do I have to put all shots into a one inch circle at a hundred yards with a target rifle, or two shots in a silhouette at nine inches? with my keltec belly gun


I apologise,,, I should have kept my mouth shut,,,, but,,, I think everyone should be armed, and training you have to pay for really burns my backside to do something the constitution promises you, as a right.
 
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ksnecktieman,
In an ideal world everyone would be legally able to pack anything they wanted to for self defense. The problem is we don't live in an ideal world and I don't see that happening in my life time or even my (1 year old on Saturday) grandson's lifetime. Training requirements are a fact of life for most of the people who have concealed carry permits.

If we're going to require people to train, what's wrong with giving them meaningful training?

I don't know if you're competant. I really won't say that I'm competant. I do know that by virtue of my profession Ive been trained to a set standard and have proven that I can meet that standard. If that standard is in fact a good measure of my ability is subject to debate.

I hardly think that anyone believes that securing a drivers license from your state government qualifies you to drive at Indy this year. It doesn't have to, the sanctioning body for Indy car racing has their own standards. A CCW permit doesn't qualify you to lead a Special Forces Team clearing caves on the Afghanistan/Pakistan border looking for Osama either.

If you're going to require training, require the training to be meaningful. And if you want meaningful training, you have to have competant instructors.

I don't think that this thread has anything to do with mandating higher training requirements. I'm sure El T wanted to talk about how to make the training we're already required to do, worth the time and the money it costs.

I don't see the big conspiracy to price CCW training out of the reach of most people.

Jeff
 
I think the CCW instructors ned to be very good, because most of the people they teach are getting their very first, and probably their only training. You can't build a strong house on a weak foundation, and a weak trainer is sure to build a weak foundation.

I think that puts a pretty serious responsibility on the trainer's back, and one that many of them don't seem to take seriously.
 
relatively low NRA standards
The standards are actually high. If an instructor follows them, they will present a safe and informative class. I think you meant performance minimums or something to get the certificate. A good instructor doesn't learn the material at the instructor course. The course is only there to help them learn to teach what they already know. I learned to "teach" what I know via the NRA LE program and my course was absolutely outstanding. I was very impressed.

I got the civilian NRA certs by reading the book and taking a multiple choice test. Very easy to pass. However, within each book was the NRA standards to follow for the class and they were high. I followed them and my 1st course (so far) went very well. If I did not follow those high standards, then I would hope at least one member of the family in attendence that were all NRA members would have reported me for being a schmuck.
 
If we could go Alaska/Vermont style carry tomorrow, I would be doing the happy dance. In fact, I'm on the list of CCW instructors who are willing to testify infront of the legislature that this is a great thing, even though I personally would be taking a big hit to my income. It is worth it for the freedom

However, right now my state requires a training class. So as long as a class is mandated, I'm going to teach the best class that I can. The problem arises when instructors teach crappy classes, and pass on bad information.

My state does not require a range session, which I think is great. The legislature decided it was a hinderence for some, and also that most confrontations happen at a really short distance, and most of the time no shots are fired, why put an artificial standard in the way of people carrying? Personally, I agree. I've run far too many range sessions with students who aren't good shots, but are responsible enough to carry, and then I've had others who were perfect angels on the range (while I was watching) who I'm sure turned into morons the second they are on their own.

I've heard the following from people who were taught by other CCW instructors:

1. It's illegal to carry with a round in the chamber.
2. You can't shoot somebody in the back.
3. If they aren't armed, you have to fight them hand to hand.
4. If you shoot them on the porch, drag them into the living room.
5. You have to let the other guy draw first, or your guilty of brandishing.
6. Your first couple of shots should be snake shot, so you just injure him first.
7. Your first shot should be a blank, so you scare them away.

etc.

So as long as people have to take a class, let's make it a good one.
 
A clarification: be advised that my question goes beyond the mandated CCW classes in some states such as Utah, Florida or Texas, inter alia.

I am asking what we in the gun culture can do to provide internal pressure (internal controls are always better than external) to ensure quality instruction even if said instruction is not mandated by Big Bro.
 
word of mouth/NRA/ASLET/state licenses

I read over this post with much interest. I've had firearms/tactics/security instructors who I thought were lacking skill and were sub-standard.

One guy I worked with on an armed security contract in 2004 claimed he was a "firearms instructor" in Virginia. This dude(a USMC veteran) would walk around off duty flashing his security officer badge and once told me how if holding a criminal at gunpoint he would rack the slide of his pistol back before he would drop it when challenged by police arriving on the crime scene :uhoh: .

I think a positive step would be for the NRA to improve the ethics standards of training instructors or have a eval or certification process. More states who license security schools/trainers should improve the process too. Quality control or complaint investigations should identify the bad firearms/tactics trainers. Word of mouth within the industry can help deal with this problem but many instructors refuse to "bad mouth" the less qualified members of their field.

For more details see; www.aslet.org www.nra.org www.fletc.gov

Rusty
 
The problem with word of mouth amongst CCW instructors is that your students aren't going to be in the loop to receive the information.

Most people getting their permits now are not the hardcore gun people. The hardcore are the ones that got their permits when they first became available. The majority of the people I teach are not old hands at this stuff, and they aren't usually immersed in the gun culture.

Usually people find an instructor because they go to a gunstore and ask if they teach CCW classes. That's pretty much it.

I teach more than most state instructors, but that's because I've got my own place, and I also teach all of our local Cabela's classes also (and they get a TON of traffic). Most of my students don't have any idea who I am, or know anything about me before they show up. So even if I was a crappy instructor, they wouldn't know.

And sadly, most regular students wouldn't know if I was a crappy instructor even after the class. When you're the subject matter expert, and you pass on wrong information, they are probably just going to assume that you know what you're talking about.

Which sucks.
 
El Tejon,

Communication is the key.

One place I assised, there was more than one instructor.
From retired SWAT, to Ladies, to a Gunsmith/ former ISPC shooter for starters.

These folks also Communicated with other Instructors, out of town, even out of state.

CCW and Training is NOT "US vs Them" . Sure instructors have to make a few bucks to conduct business, cover expenses, money should NOT be their only priority.

There is more than one way to teach something, should be, because everybody is different, and learns differently.

Toss the pride and ego out the window, and work for the common good. WE did. One fellow called up and said he had an all Ladies class, first time for him, and 3 of our ladies, licensed to teach, ran down to assist him in his class, and one lady lawyer ran down with them, to do the legal part.

They had a ball! Later some of the ladies came up our way to say thanks, say hello, and sent folks they knew local to us for CCW.

When trainers get together for a Summit, trainers are there for the student. Trainers young and old do their two hour blocks, and they too learn from each other. They communicate with each other and the student.

SWAT fellow knew revolvers, one of the ladies knew revolvers as well she is the Queen of the J Frame. One student had a problem getting a concept, more than one way to assist. This lady just could not "see" the concept. Gunsmith/IPSC shooter and I watching and listening, noticed something. It was a small thing, just IPSC pointed it out to me, and then he chimed in and it worked.

Like anything else, be it retail business, lawyers, insurance agents, or car mechanics. Folks spend money to advertise to get customers. It costs $____ for each customer that come in the door. Negative reviews - no way to put a dollar value on lost customers, spreading that advertising to others.

Students need to communicate, if need be, file a report with governing dept that oversees CCW. Lawyers do so, as do other professions with their governing bodies.

Instructors need to communicate with each other as well. They should be anyway as I view it, not only for CCW, also for RKBA and other common goals.

I mean an instructor may learn a teaching method from another instructor, not that his method was wrong, just now another tool in the toolbox for teaching.

Another example, I took the call from a Scrub Tech, that said she was be getting off work at 7am, and be coming to 8am class straight from work. I know this work, I know what it is like to be in class at 8am after being up 12 hours on this shift. "I'd kill for fresh fruit for breakfast" she said. Fine. Restrooms clean, towels and washcloths, and I had fruit bowls for breakfast.
When she called, she heard the Black Lab bark. "Is that a dog?" she asked, I told her it was a black lab, and we had a golden retriever that assisted in classes too. She brought dog treats when she showed up. Dogs has a newest bestest friend that morning. These dogs were really good at making newest bestest friends. :)
We had listened to each other. Communicated. She was blown away at being able to freshen up, with a clean restroom, towels and washcloths, and had her fruit.

She told a girlfriend in another state. Girlfriend told her instructor she had gotten her CCW from, and that instructor incorporated that idea with his students. They too were having a run of ladies, working in hospitals, getting CCW. He and his wife was so busy getting fruit bowls for a class of these ladies, just getting off work, they forgot the blue training guns they used, but hey, a teenager can show up and bail out a mom and dad that cannot remember training guns for a CCW class. :)

It is all good, nobody is more "right" or "wrong" - just sometimes not the presentation , but how presented.
 
now I totally agree with you el tejon.

linda, I apologise for stepping on your toes. I assume you teach state mandated classes required for a ccw permit? I think it would be great if every teacher of those classes was committed to their teaching, and competent to do it. Kansas ccw is newborn. The first permits will be issued in January. We have state mandated training. If I recall the law states that the training will be ten hours for 150$. I can and will get it. I know people that will not, because they are poorly employed and have other financial needs that have to take priority.

My concern is that if we demand better training, either by extending the required time to 40 hours, instead of ten, or raising the standards of the teachers we will be short of teachers qualified. Then some time soon the price for training will be 1,500$ instead of 150$.

I think my concern is more theoretical than factual. The power to tax something (mandated training for a permit) is the power to ban it.
 
Generally this is a question that the public school systems, colleges, universities, and many others would probably like to know the answer to. My wife is a teacher (elementary) and some of the horror stories are near unbelievable. I have heard them from others also so this system is not alone.

I personnally don't believe that anygiven person can be taught any given thing. Some people just can not do some things well.

As to assuring competence, the only method that I feel would work is to apply independant testing for all "graduates". Not workable in a lot of instances. In the case of CCW that could become a tool for the anti's.

Those that are in the business as "professionals" will probaly be weeded out by their competition eventually, and as was previously pointed out- anyone who takes ANY knowledge from any source as granite without their own acid test is probably already in jeopardy.
 
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