How do I SBR?

[Hatterasguy]

I have an UZI coming my way and I want to restore it with the proper length barrel. From my understanding this isn't that hard I just have to pay $200 for a tax stamp.

But I have never done this before, do I need to use an FFL or can I just fill out a form, and send a check into the ATF???


I'm getting it cheap enough that even with the $200 I'm still in the black and can make money on it. Trading it for a nail gun!

 

[Sam1911]

First, make sure that your state allows them. (Check the sticky at the top of the NFA forum.)

Download the ATF's Form 1. That's what you'll need to fill out to register that you are "making" a new NFA-regulated firearm.

You will need to get some fingerprints done and will need your local Chief Law Enforcement Official to sign the form for you. ***

You will need to have the firearm engraved with your name, city, and state, as you are now the manufacturer of this SBR.

Once you've made it into an SBR, you'll have to file a Form 5320.20 whenever you want to transport it to another state.

*** (If your local CLEO(s) will not sign on a Form 1, there is another route you can go that involves making a legal Trust which actually owns the guns. Not too hard to do, but an extra step.)

 

[Hatterasguy]

Ok thanks, they should sign but if not I'll go the other route.

 

[Spec ops Grunt]

Why do you have to tell them why you want to make it into an SBR?


What do you even respond with?

 

[Sam1911]

Why do you have to tell them why you want to make it into an SBR?

Because they ask. Obviously.

What do you even respond with?

Pretty much any innocuous sounding answer will work. Collecting is always good, as is "all lawful purposes."

 

[GoingQuiet]

Why do you have to tell them why you want to make it into an SBR?


What do you even respond with?

All lawful purposes is the best answer to use.

Form 1 the gun - engrave the barrel and you are good to go.

 

[Rail Driver]

Form 1 the gun - engrave the barrel and you are good to go.

It's my understanding that the receiver of the firearm is the part that is required to be engraved... Is this in error, or was your statement inaccurate?

 

[Sam1911]

Is this in error, or was your statement inaccurate?

Yeah, a slip. The receiver is the regulated item.

 

[smince]

there is another route you can go that involves making a legal Trust which actually owns the guns. Not too hard to do, but an extra step.)

And extra $$$.

It can be upwards to $600 for a properly prepared Trust from an attorney.

 

[GoingQuiet]

It's my understanding that the receiver of the firearm is the part that is required to be engraved... Is this in error, or was your statement inaccurate?

Last sentence, paragraph three.

 

[Sam1911]

That is an option I've never heard of before -- thanks for sharing. I think I'd want to keep that letter right handy if I went that way.

...

But, I also don't think I'd want to go that way, almost ever. What about your switch-barrel AR-15? Or the T/C Contender you want to run various pistol barrels on with a butt-stock? Or pretty much any rifle you'd ever want to re-barrel? Heck, even the Uzi. The barrel drops out with the turn of one nut. I've known guys who kept several barrels in their shooting bag.

Do you have to engrave every barrel that might go on your registered gun? (It is STILL the receiver that is registered, not the barrel, after all. A barrel is a "consumable" item, to be replaced when worn out.) What if you take that barrel off (especially replacing it with another)? Are you "obliterating" the maker's mark and serial number?

Too many consequences of going that route.

 

[CleverNickname]

Yes, you'd need to engrave the maker's info on any short barrels used in the gun. And remember, it's the receiver that's registered, not the barrel, so just because the short barrel has that info on it doesn't mean you can go putting it in any Uzi you want to.

Also, most semi auto Uzis have a barrel restrictor ring above the feed ramp which prevents you from using a SMG barrel. You either need to cut down the current barrel, cut off the restrictor ring, or have the outside of the breech end of an SMG barrel milled down so that it will fit inside the ring.

 

[bkjeffrey]

I built an SBR on a Form 1 last this year so I'd like to think I have a little experience in this. When you fill out a Form 1 it asks for the Manufacturers model and SN. In the case of an AR15 lower reciever you would input the existing info on your F1 in the appropriate blocks. That makes the lower reciever the registered SBR and only that lower can be in SBR configuration.

When manufacturing an SBR from an existing reciever you becom the "maker". The "maker" has to in turn have his information engraved somewhere on the rifle. In this case the barrel is an acceptable location for the "maker's" mark. The lower reciever is still registered via the existing manufacturers SN. Your just simply placing your makers mark in a location not readily sucseptible of being of readily obliterated. My thoughts are also that engraving the makers mark on the lower reciever makes them very readily of being obliterated. How hard would it be to scratch off a makers mark from a magazine well of an AR? A barrel on the other hand is not "readily" capable of being obliterated. You would have to remove the handguards to access the makers mark.

Remember, the SN of the reciever is what is registered to the ATF on your F1. Also, an AR barrel is not readily changeable. It requires specialized tools and equipment.

Do you have to engrave every barrel that might go on your registered gun? (It is STILL the receiver that is registered, not the barrel, after all. A barrel is a "consumable" item, to be replaced when worn out.) What if you take that barrel off (especially replacing it with another)? Are you "obliterating" the maker's mark and serial number?

In a perfect world you will have only one short barrel per registered reciever. You can no longer have numerous short barrels, say in various calibers, for you designated lower reciever. Thats why you can no longer put "various" for caliber on your F1.

Having numerous shortened barrels laying around would quickly become "constructive intent" the minute you bought another AR15 or even had another lower reciever laying around.

In short, Have one registered lower reciever with one short barrel that has the makers mark on it. That simple. You pick the caliber when you fill out your F1, thats it. If you want another SBR in a different caliber then fill out another F1. Again, thats why ATF says no more "various" or "multiple" entries on the F1. They eliminated the gray area with that decision. One reciever, one barrel, one makers mark.

When that consumable barrel is shot out you notify the ATF in writing that you need to replace a marked part of you SBR. When instructed in writing you remove and destroy the marked barrel and then replace. A torch cut through the chamber/ barrel extension on an AR barrel would be acceptable destruction.

Again this is just my .02

 

[TexasRifleman]

In this case the barrel is an acceptable location for the "maker's" mark.

Do you have something more on this for ARs? ATF opinion letters have said that for the PS90 SBRs the barrel was acceptable because it was a "permanent fixture" to the receiver.

So, if they are using that line of reasoning it would follow that an AR15 barrel is NOT a "permanent fixture".

I'd be careful on that one without an opinion letter from Tech Branch. Maybe one out there already, never seen one though.

I do understand that the law doesn't say one way or the other, but a little caution is always good.

Also, if you had more than one short upper you would need more than one engraving. I'd avoid the barrel if for no other reason than that.

If you have a 14.5 and a 10 inch upper and only the 14.5 is engraved, the 10 inch installed would make the firearm in violation.

 

[Rail Driver]

I built an SBR on a Form 1 last this year so I'd like to think I have a little experience in this. When you fill out a Form 1 it asks for the Manufacturers model and SN. In the case of an AR15 lower reciever you would input the existing info on your F1 in the appropriate blocks. That makes the lower reciever the registered SBR and only that lower can be in SBR configuration.

When manufacturing an SBR from an existing reciever you becom the "maker". The "maker" has to in turn have his information engraved somewhere on the rifle. In this case the barrel is an acceptable location for the "maker's" mark. The lower reciever is still registered via the existing manufacturers SN. Your just simply placing your makers mark in a location not readily sucseptible of being of readily obliterated. My thoughts are also that engraving the makers mark on the lower reciever makes them very readily of being obliterated. How hard would it be to scratch off a makers mark from a magazine well of an AR? A barrel on the other hand is not "readily" capable of being obliterated. You would have to remove the handguards to access the makers mark.

Remember, the SN of the reciever is what is registered to the ATF on your F1. Also, an AR barrel is not readily changeable. It requires specialized tools and equipment.

Quote:
Do you have to engrave every barrel that might go on your registered gun? (It is STILL the receiver that is registered, not the barrel, after all. A barrel is a "consumable" item, to be replaced when worn out.) What if you take that barrel off (especially replacing it with another)? Are you "obliterating" the maker's mark and serial number?
In a perfect world you will have only one short barrel per registered reciever. You can no longer have numerous short barrels, say in various calibers, for you designated lower reciever. Thats why you can no longer put "various" for caliber on your F1.

Having numerous shortened barrels laying around would quickly become "constructive intent" the minute you bought another AR15 or even had another lower reciever laying around.

In short, Have one registered lower reciever with one short barrel that has the makers mark on it. That simple. You pick the caliber when you fill out your F1, thats it. If you want another SBR in a different caliber then fill out another F1. Again, thats why ATF says no more "various" or "multiple" entries on the F1. They eliminated the gray area with that decision. One reciever, one barrel, one makers mark.

When that consumable barrel is shot out you notify the ATF in writing that you need to replace a marked part of you SBR. When instructed in writing you remove and destroy the marked barrel and then replace. A torch cut through the chamber/ barrel extension on an AR barrel would be acceptable destruction.

Again this is just my .02

So by your logic, it would be illegal for me to own a SBR registered lower, and more than one upper, and it would also be illegal for me to buy a non-SBR lower if I already own a registered SBR because I would be guilty of constructive possession? Something sounds fishy here... Can you cite a statute or ATF regulation stating this? I certainly won't be destroying a $200 lower when my form 1 comes back just because I'm registering an SBR on my other rifle simply because I chose to pay for a tax stamp before buying an upper for my non-NFA rifle. That's like saying if you own NFA registered AR-15s you can no longer own non-NFA AR-15s because it would be constructive possession.

Also, as far as the "readily obliterated" line of thought you mention, the only legally applicable place for any required information on any gun is on the regulated part only. You're welcome to put your required makers mark anywhere you like as long as it's on the regulated part of the firearm as well (ie the lower receiver of an AR-15). Putting your mark in duplicate on the barrel is, of course, your choice, but it's required to be on the receiver because the receiver is the firearm. The barrel is just a part.

 

[bkjeffrey]

So by your logic, it would be illegal for me to own a SBR registered lower, and more than one upper, and it would also be illegal for me to buy a non-SBR lower if I already own a registered SBR because I would be guilty of constructive possession?

Yes...by my logic. But thats just it, my logic.

Again this is just my .02

That's like saying if you own NFA registered AR-15s you can no longer own non-NFA AR-15s because it would be constructive possession.

Constructive Intent.....
Be hard to prove that you never had any intent on putting one of your SBR uppers on a non-regiestered AR lower, would it?

But in all reality, lets all take our tin-foil hats off.

Anyway, I do apologize for derailing the thread with relations to AR15s. The original post was regarding UZIs, wich I know NOTHING about.

 

[bkjeffrey]

TO THE OP:

But I have never done this before, do I need to use an FFL or can I just fill out a form, and send a check into the ATF???

Bsically thats it. You do not need an FFL to do the process for you. You can download and fill out an ATF Form 1 " Application to manufacture a frearm". You fill it out with your information. The form clearly states how to fill out each block so its pretty much dummy proof. You complete two identical copies. Then you attach a 2x2 passport photo the the back page of the F1 in the space provided, I use glustick. You then go to you local police station and have them complete two fingerprint cards. My local PD charges $15 for this fee, and make sure the officer fingerprinting you fills out his info on both fingerprint cards. Then you need a CLEO signature on the back of the F1. I used my local prosecuting attourney. Drop the forms off with his secretary with a sticky as to what I need. Pick them up with his signature the next day.

Once you have two completed and signed form 1s, two complete fingerprint cards and two passport photos attached to each Form 1 you then insert them into an envelope with a check or money order for $200. You mail all of that to the ATF and wait. Make sure you use delivery confirmation with USPS or have your UPS tracking number handy. Wait a couple weeks and give them a call to make sure you package has been accepted. Once it is accepted there you simply wait. The ATF will mail one of your two submitted F1 s back to you with your tax stamp attached.

 

[Sam1911]

Also, an AR barrel is not readily changeable

Um...but an upper sure is.

In a perfect world you will have only one short barrel per registered reciever.

Doesn't sound "perfect" to me...

You can no longer have numerous short barrels, say in various calibers, for you designated lower reciever. Thats why you can no longer put "various" for caliber on your F1.

You cannot put "various." However, from what I've been told (recently) you CAN put, '7", 10", and 14.5"' if you want those options.

Same with caliber. You can't say "multi," but you CAN say "5.56mm, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39mm, and .50 Beowulf."

I don't know why they changed the way they do that, but I've not seen anything that said they won't allow multiple lengths and chamberings as long as you spell out which ones.

 

[Zoogster]

Be hard to prove that you never had any intent on putting one of your SBR uppers on a non-regiestered AR lower, would it?

Would be equally hard to prove you did have said intent, and in this country you are supposed to be innocent unless proven guilty. Not guilty by default unless you can prove you are innocent.

So by default a person is supposed to be innocent in our legal system when there is merely the possibility they could have done something illegal, when the same possibility exists they may not have with no evidence to the contrary.
Now I know justice often does not prevail, but that was how our system was supposed to work. This presumption that an extra component for a modular firearm will be used on the wrong firearm when a firearm it is legal to use it with is legally possessed runs entirely contrary to that premise in our legal system.
It would also appear to run contrary to the Thompson Supreme Court decision where even selling a whole kit that contained items that could readily be assembled in a manner in violation of the NFA was entirely legal because they could just as easily only be used in legal configurations.



A change in the ability to use multiple calibers or barrels on a modular firearm platform really reduces the benefits of that platform.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You can no longer have numerous short barrels, say in various calibers, for you designated lower reciever. Thats why you can no longer put "various" for caliber on your F1.

Sam is correct, you can still list more than one length or caliber, you just have to be specific.

My last Form 1 says

Length: 10", 11", 14.5"
Caliber: .22, .223, 6.8SPC

I don't even own anything 6.8 SPC, but someday I might.

Engraving the barrel just seems artificially limiting for no reason, even if legal.

Now, all that said, there is another argument that says that once you have the Tax Stamp that you can have any configuration you wish, that the specifics on the Form 1 do not matter. That line of reasoning says that an SBR is an SBR, and that the tax stamp gives you "permission" to make any legal SBR from that receiver since you could change calibers on a Title 1 firearm too. That line of reasoning frankly makes sense, but again we're talking about a niche part of law that even ATF doesn't understand (shoestrings are machine guns) so the best bet is to take the safe route as often as possible.

Does any of this matter from a practical standpoint? Do people get arrested for having the wrong or no engraving? Doesn't seem to actually happen unless you draw attention to the firearm for some other reason, but the risk doesn't seem to be worth it to me.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Sec. 479.102 How must firearms be identified?

(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must
legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual
serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must
not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller
than 1/16 inch; and
(2) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise
conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped
(impressed), or placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel thereof certain
additional information. This information must be placed in a manner not
susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered or removed. For
firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002,
the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of this information
must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information
includes:
(i) The model, if such designation has been made;
(ii) The caliber or gauge;
(iii) Your name (or recognized abbreviation) and also, when
applicable, the name of the foreign manufacturer or maker;
(iv) In the case of a domestically made firearm, the city and State
(or recognized abbreviation thereof) where you as the manufacturer
maintain your place of business, or where you, as the maker, made the
firearm; and

[[Page 189]]

(v) In the case of an imported firearm, the name of the country in
which it was manufactured and the city and State (or recognized
abbreviation thereof) where you as the importer maintain your place of
business. For additional requirements relating to imported firearms, see
Customs regulations at 19 CFR part 134.
(b) The depth of all markings required by this section will be
measured from the flat surface of the metal and not the peaks or ridges.
The height of serial numbers required by paragraph (a)(1) of this
section will be measured as the distance between the latitudinal ends of
the character impression bottoms (bases).
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon
receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate,
showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder
the effective administration of this part.
(d) In the case of a destructive device, the Director may authorize
other means of identifying that weapon upon receipt of a letter
application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that engraving,
casting, or stamping (impressing) such a weapon would be dangerous or
impracticable.
(e) A firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a
complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed
of by you must be identified as required by this section.
(f)(1) Any part defined as a machine gun, muffler, or silencer for
the purposes of this part that is not a component part of a complete
firearm at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of by you
must be identified as required by this section.
(2) The Director may authorize other means of identification of
parts defined as machine guns other than frames or receivers and parts
defined as mufflers or silencers upon receipt of a letter application
from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification
is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this
part.

 

[bkjeffrey]

Sam is correct, you can still list more than one length or caliber, you just have to be specific.

Hmm. I stand corrected. Learn something new everyday.

As for the rest of my post, just my opinion. You all have valid arguable points as well. Good reading for future viewers.

 

[GoingQuiet]

The practicality of engraving a BARREL ONLY that I brought up is specific to the Uzi. Barrel swaps are very easy - not like an AR15. Engraving barrels makes far more sense on an Uzi than other SMGs.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Darn I can't get it, just read up on the uber lame CT laws and found out the IMI Uzi is on the bad list, I guess the gun grabbers are to scared of them. So I ain't touching it now.

Two questions, any way in CT to legally own a pre ban Uzi? Or what kind's are legal, I see some Vector's online with fixed stocks that look pretty complaint.

 

[GoingQuiet]

Darn I can't get it, just read up on the uber lame CT laws and found out the IMI Uzi is on the bad list, I guess the gun grabbers are to scared of them. So I ain't touching it now.

Two questions, any way in CT to legally own a pre ban Uzi? Or what kind's are legal, I see some Vector's online with fixed stocks that look pretty complaint.

Just get an SMG with the selector reconfigured to a CT legal setup.