How do old Colt revolvers compare to modern S&W et al in accuracy?

[Doug.38PR]

It has been said to me that older revolvers (pre1980s) aren't as accurate and don't have quite as good velocity than modern revolvers (post 1990s)

It was even said to me today when I told a dealer and former LEO that I my goal at the range was to be able to shoot the bullseye with one hand, at 50 yards with my Colt Official Police.
He frowned and said "that gun won't be able to do it" (at least not consistantly)"it's a four inch barrel and is too short for 50 yards. Such guns are only accurate for up to 15 yards especially with a gun that of that age."

Well, thinking about that, I considered further, "wait a minute, we are talking about a colt." Their barrels were superior when they were built 50 years ago and just as good when they were built into classics like the Python. Such guns are notoriously accurate especially with their "bank vault" lock of the cylinder.

But, what do you Colt experts out there think of that. Could the Offical Police or the Python meet my goal of 50 yards with one hand if I practiced enough?

Didn't police used to have to qualify at 50 yards with one hand and even have competition shootings (pre-shyster attorney days)?

 

[Standing Wolf]

Could the Offical Police or the Python meet my goal of 50 yards with one hand if I practiced enough?

Yep.

I'd say you need to find a better class of gun shop.

 

[Old Fuff]

Back in the old days...

The FBI had a training course that had stages at ranges running from 7 to 50 yards, and the issue revolver was a Colt Official Police .38 with a four-inch barrel.

I have personally kicked a small auto muffler around at 100 yards using a Official Police with a 6 inch barrel, and could have done it with a 4-incher.

On other occasions, using an older 2 inch Detective Special I have put "6 out of 6" into the K-zone of a b-27 silhouette target at a measured 100 yards.

Those old Official Police .38's had cut (not swaged) rifling with a 16-to-1 twist, and would cut cloverleafs at 25 yards and shoot under 2 inches at 50 if the shooter did his part. 1940's and 50's Colt catalogs featured pictures of the targets.

Granted, if the revolver is worn, loose and out of time, you won't get this kind of performance. But if it's tight and timed like it should be it will shoot the pants off of most currently produced guns.

 

[Jim Reaves]

Doug
The above comments are right on. I have numerous Colts and S/Ws revolvers, and if the weapon is in good condition, it will shoot far better than you can shoot it.
I am a firearms instructor and I start my students off using a revolver. Many times, after completing the course they decide to purchase a revolver. There is almost no different between the accuracy of the Colts and the S/Ws.

 

[dfariswheel]

In fact, the old style Colt revolvers are generally MORE accurate than other brands.
Much of this is due to Colt's better quality barrels with a faster rifling twist and Colt's famous "Bank Vault" lock up, in which the cylinder is tightly locked in place with the chamber aligned with the bore.

In other brands, the cylinder is deliberately allowed to be slightly loose at the moment of ignition, and the bullet entering the bore aligns the cylinder.
This means that the bullet is always deformed slightly from striking the bore slightly off center.

As for a 4" not being up to good accuracy, 6" guns are usually chosen for formal target shooting because of having a longer sight radius, but a 4" is usually just as accurate.

Back in the 1950's, there was a man who hit the regional NRA shooting matches in the days when the revolver was king.
He'd make bets that he could out-shoot the target shooters.

The bet: They could use their 6" target revolvers, firing in single action.
He'd use his Colt 2" barreled Detective Special, and he'd shoot DOUBLE ACTION.

They'd take the bet, and he almost always cleaned their clocks.

Shooting at 50 yards with a 4" is just harder, due to the shorter sight radius.

 

[SnWnMe]

Just about any good quality wheelgun with good sights can meet your goal.

 

[Dr.Who]

Yep, the old colts will do that..... I have a target .38 6" Second Edition made in 1914. It is way more accurate than I. It'll shoot the pants off my Newer Smith's.

 

[moewadle]

Since I am a beginner maybe I should not speak

but I have to add that I just bought an unfired SW 10-5 made 31 years ago. I cannot shoot very well but on my second cylinder load I hit two stationary clay pigeons at 30 yards. Clay pigeons are around 4 inches in diameter. My point is, that I think this revolver has loads of potential for accurate shooting that is way beyond my ability. It is a 38 special (of course) with a four inch barrel. My sense is that this is a very, very good revolver. I am going to take it over to the rifle side of the outdoor range I use and see what it will do at 50 or more yards (I am going to use a BIG target.)

 

[dragongoddess]

That seems strange. My Anaconda with a 4 inch barrel was shooting just a bit to the left at 150 yards the first time I shot it. It was great shooting at that target and at that distance. It threw up a lot of dirt when it impacted the berm.

 

[sm]

Old Fuff wrote:

Those old Official Police .38's had cut (not swaged) rifling with a 16-to-1 twist...

Old Fuff,
dfarriswheel,

For education and comparison would you please share the rate of twist and type of rifling use for similar and older offerings in .38spl like:

S&W M&P [K frames -Model 10]

Ruger Six series


Steve

 

[BigG]

Most revos, Colt or S&W, have more potential accuracy than most shooters can use.

I have had good luck with any and all bbl lengths and frame sizes. The little snubbies are the hardest to shoot well because of their light weight and short sight radius but you can learn to DA them and make a group if you're willing to put in the effort. YMMV

 

[Old Fuff]

For education and comparison would you please share the rate of twist and type of rifling use for similar and older offerings in .38sp

Colt and Ruger have always used a faster twist (16 to 1) then Smith & Wesson (18 3/4 to 1). As I understand it S&W are now using a EDM procedure to rifle barrels that leaves a very smooth bore but shallow rifling. Previously it was swaged, and before that it was cut - as Colt used too do. Ruger button rifles (swages) the rifling. Dfariswheel correctly described the Colt system, and it is noteworthy that during the 1920's through 1950's when bullseye target shooters used revolvers the Colt was much prefered over Smith & Wesson.

As an aside: I used to shoot a Smith & Wesson K-38 Target Masterpiece in bullseye matches using factory 148-grain mid-range wadcutters. Occasionally I would notice marks on my 50 yard slow-fire targets that indicated the bullet was yawing. Considering my marksmanship this didn't matter, but it was obvious that the bullet was starting to become unstable.

 

[sm]

Old Fuff,
Thank you.

I knew there was a difference in the rate of twist and rifling method, just could not recall.
With "modern methods" and some of these "methods" being for the benefit of profit, not for the buyer, I just had to ask.

 

[PX15]

Well, we can see I love old snubby's... And even with the short sight radius I think any of them are capable of much greater accuracy than MY eyes allow them to be.

I have found at self defense range the J-frame S&W's and the Colt D-frames are about equal in accuracy.

All of my shooting is done between 7-10 yards. I'm worried about personal defense and if a bg is 50 yards away I have time to run to the El Camino, fire 'er up and run over the sucker.. Yep, he might shoot my windshield out, but I'll make a GM hood ornament of him in the process.

I've got a couple of books by Elmer Keith and his skill at long-distance shooting proves that most quality firearms are more than "accuracy adequate" for anything the skill level of the shooter will allow them to be.

Or, the firearm will indeed place the projectile where the barrel was pointed when you pulled the trigger...

JMOFO

Best Wishes

J. Pomeroy

 

[Old Fuff]

I should also explain that S&W's slow 18 3/4" twist came about in 1899, and was intended to be optimal for the .38 Special's 158-grain bullet.

The difference in accuracy between Smith & Wesson vs. Colt revolvers is very slight, and might only be detected at 50 yards using a machine rest. The choice of ammunition also plays a part. Smith & Wesson's current barrels seem to hold a slight advantage with jacketed bullets (which most shooters use today) where Ruger's and older Colt's (they no longer make any revolvers except the Single Action Army) and Smith & Wesson's worked better with lead bullets as well as jacketed ones.

The main point is that to suggest that either brand - but in particular older Colt's - are only accurate to to 15 yards or so is pure... you know what. Granted - if a particular revolver is badly out of time this might be true, but such a revolver is an exception - not the rule.