Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Might be grunge buildup, and/or those value shells are almost off spec. Try it again with a clean shotgun and see.
How do Value Pack loads perform?
- Thread starter Gearhead Jim
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ysr_racer
Member
Win does that in my Browning also. Fed or Rem value pack does not.
Grayrock
Member
In my Browning A-500 I have never had a problem, but have always used AA's. One season I loaned it to a friend who was shooting the cheapies and at the end of the day, when he returned my gun, he told me I might want to have my gun looked at as several jams occurred. HMMM. I've never had a problem since then either. Double HMMM.
Gearhead Jim
Member
Recently I bought a 100 rd Value Pack each of Winchester, Federal, and Remington. 12 gauge. 3 dram, 1 1/8 oz #8. Here's a little comparison info:
When disected, all three brands had a regular shot cup, not wad/wrapper substitutes. The shot looked round to casual visual inspection on each brand.
Patterned four shots each today at 40 yds with the full choke (Briley) tube in my BSS.
Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
(Didn't have time to pattern the Remington)
Hope this helps someone.....
When disected, all three brands had a regular shot cup, not wad/wrapper substitutes. The shot looked round to casual visual inspection on each brand.
Patterned four shots each today at 40 yds with the full choke (Briley) tube in my BSS.
Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
(Didn't have time to pattern the Remington)
Hope this helps someone.....
sm
member
Though I have shot Win AA ...forever and reloaded almost exclusivley AA , I really dislike the newer promo load...that steel case is weird. My opinion of the win promo is it is like the win 22lr Expert ammo, made for selling not shooting. Even my really tacky reloads will extract,... those Wiinie promo have a tendencey to hang up.
I keep chambers clean with the 0000,or finest scotchbrite method , I really really suspect the ammo is off spec., haven't measured tho'
I have really good results with the Fed Multi pak ( MP 12 8 ) , IIRC in using the "plier test" the shot was harder than the other promo loads. I get real sciencetific sometimes.
Each gun, choke , has it's druthers.
I keep chambers clean with the 0000,or finest scotchbrite method , I really really suspect the ammo is off spec., haven't measured tho'
I have really good results with the Fed Multi pak ( MP 12 8 ) , IIRC in using the "plier test" the shot was harder than the other promo loads. I get real sciencetific sometimes.
Each gun, choke , has it's druthers.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
I haven't been tabulating the feedback, but it looks like the Fed stuff is the best OA performaer among the promo fodder. Harder shot, etc, the case is not reloadable and that's where the savings are.
We may be splitting hairs here. I doubt much difference can be seen inside 25 yards.
We may be splitting hairs here. I doubt much difference can be seen inside 25 yards.
Poodleshooter
Member
It's reloadable,even though it's a paper base wad. Just don't get them wet. 22grs of Green Dot (volume metered), Win209 and 1-1/8oz of Lawrence shot works fine for me, and runs about 1240-1260fps.
The $2.97 high speed Remington's have even better single piece hulls very similar to the STS or Nitro hulls, just with a 6pt crimp and maybe slightly worse plastic. Internal volume is the same though. The Winchester bulk pack hulls are polyformed (seperate plastic basewad), and usually have shot through crimps. I don't buy them for that reason.
Federal patterns best for me, possibly due to their wad designs. Their component wads throw the tightest patterns I've shot, and I have yet to see gas blow-by on a Federal wad column that I've shot.
I reload the federal promo shells also. Use about 19 grains of Clays powder, AA primer, and 1oz claybuster wads. Usually reload about 4 times and it gets put in the auto shotgun and gets left on the ground. I don't usually shoot AAs and Rem Premier shells through my auto unless its a tournament. Can get as many as 15-20 reloads out of the better hulls, granted they look pretty bad before I throw them away, but as long as they still shoot okay.....
sm
member
Good point about the hulls, I think I paid $3.47 / $3.98 for a AA target loads at Sports Authority, running a special or something. I dunno bought a cart full of stuff that day, you know how it goes. Anyway for a bit more monies I get the use of hulls for 15 more reloads? Even the regular price of $ 4.70 is not bad to get hulls.
Poodleshooter and Kudu, yeah these reload fine, thanks for sharing recipes.
kudu...I dunno something about candle wax and electrical tape give a shell 'character'...also when "shooting two" with tacky loads with an unknown squad...boy are they impressed.
Yeah I know Dave will comment...but since he IS working on his skeet game...well...just an idea
Poodleshooter and Kudu, yeah these reload fine, thanks for sharing recipes.
kudu...I dunno something about candle wax and electrical tape give a shell 'character'...also when "shooting two" with tacky loads with an unknown squad...boy are they impressed.
Yeah I know Dave will comment...but since he IS working on his skeet game...well...just an idea
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
73, since the Hull Elf gifts me with once fired STS hulls upon asking, the value packs have little value for me. Once my old AAs are used up as skeet ammo, it's STS for everything until something changes.
"Each gun, choke, has its druthers". Amen....
"Each gun, choke, has its druthers". Amen....
Gearhead Jim
Member
So far, I don't shoot enough shotshells to justify reloading. That may change. Some of the posts I've seen, here and other threads, have suggested that the current AA hulls (not Value Pack or field loads) do not reload as well as the older AA. Is that true, or am I misunderstanding something?
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Differnt maybe, worse, unlikely.
I had a number of the "Old" AAs bust on the first firing.
Current cost of reloading runs less than $2.80 a box.
Aha, you say, I can buy these value packs for but a dollar more.
Not apples to apples, my reloads compare to premium trap loads.And they're tailored to a specific mission.
Reloading saves little, it enables us to shoot more for the same cash outlay.
I had a number of the "Old" AAs bust on the first firing.
Current cost of reloading runs less than $2.80 a box.
Aha, you say, I can buy these value packs for but a dollar more.
Not apples to apples, my reloads compare to premium trap loads.And they're tailored to a specific mission.
Reloading saves little, it enables us to shoot more for the same cash outlay.
sm
member
I agree Dave, that $2.80 reload equates to the premium hard shot loads, over and over again. Plus you can tweak reloads a bit to fit gun chole conditions.
RE: hull elfs, Recall the guy that said he'd store those 20K or so of my AA hulls, in his third unused garage bay? Then I took more boxes over...He and the Mrs are building a new house, will have 5 garage bays, the fifth will have an attachment to a gun room...his wife volunteered me to move my hulls and his stuff. Said its my fault and I am a bad influence. [not me] and this new house she wants...and she is wanting him to have a "wing of his own". I think this means at least when he is in the doghouse, it will be a nice doghouse.
Took him 25 years to finally train her...oops
2 cars, 5 bays, didn't want the grandbaby getting wet , and she has projects of her own. "We're told old too carry stuff all over the house,stuff usually gets left in garage to get worked on, 3 bays give plenty o f piddlin' room". Ya know, that makes sense.
RE: hull elfs, Recall the guy that said he'd store those 20K or so of my AA hulls, in his third unused garage bay? Then I took more boxes over...He and the Mrs are building a new house, will have 5 garage bays, the fifth will have an attachment to a gun room...his wife volunteered me to move my hulls and his stuff. Said its my fault and I am a bad influence. [not me] and this new house she wants...and she is wanting him to have a "wing of his own". I think this means at least when he is in the doghouse, it will be a nice doghouse.
Took him 25 years to finally train her...oops
2 cars, 5 bays, didn't want the grandbaby getting wet , and she has projects of her own. "We're told old too carry stuff all over the house,stuff usually gets left in garage to get worked on, 3 bays give plenty o f piddlin' room". Ya know, that makes sense.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
73, that thread about liking my MEC has some info on mission specific, tailored reloads.
And it looks like you've started your buddy on that slippery slope,heh,heh...
And it looks like you've started your buddy on that slippery slope,heh,heh...
Gearhead Jim
Member
Today I made some time to pattern the Remington Value Pack loads that got skipped last week. Using the same gun, procedure, and load
(3 drams- 1 1/8 oz- #8) as before, the Remingtons averaged 74%, which seems pretty good to me. On the other hand, shooting more patterns or using a different lot of each ammo, could change things. But for now the score is:
Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
Remington Value Pack: 74%
(3 drams- 1 1/8 oz- #8) as before, the Remingtons averaged 74%, which seems pretty good to me. On the other hand, shooting more patterns or using a different lot of each ammo, could change things. But for now the score is:
Winchester AA: 78%
Winchester Value Pack: 67%
Federal Value Pack: 71%
Remington Value Pack: 74%
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
So, Jim, if you use the Rempaks instead of AAs, you give up 4% of density to save how much? Sounds like a good tradeoff unless you're shooting a big match.
Actually, for general shooting all of them should do nicely. But KNOWING that is the reason for patterning.
Actually, for general shooting all of them should do nicely. But KNOWING that is the reason for patterning.
ysr_racer
Member
Gearhead Jim, thanks for the info.
Would you mind cutting open all 3 shells and weighing the shot? Maybe measure it too? How about comparing the wads?
Thanks for all your help.
brad
Would you mind cutting open all 3 shells and weighing the shot? Maybe measure it too? How about comparing the wads?
Thanks for all your help.
brad
Gearhead Jim
Member
Brad- actually, I did think about counting the shot. But then I realised that what matters is the number of pellets in the pattern area, not the total number in the shell. (A good excuse not to count pellets) I calculated that 1 1/8 oz should have 461 pellets of #8, and used that number to do my percentages.
"That's my story and I'm sticking to it."
For 16 yard trap, the guys in my club do not agree on whether to use Full choke or Modified. I tried both, shot about the same. It seems like Modified would be better for those who try to break the bird immediately, Full would work for those who take a little more time.
And using the Value Pack loads would loosen up whatever choke is used.
You guys are the experts, what do you think?
"That's my story and I'm sticking to it."
For 16 yard trap, the guys in my club do not agree on whether to use Full choke or Modified. I tried both, shot about the same. It seems like Modified would be better for those who try to break the bird immediately, Full would work for those who take a little more time.
And using the Value Pack loads would loosen up whatever choke is used.
You guys are the experts, what do you think?
ysr_racer
Member
From :
http://www.gunshop.com/shotsize.htm
Size-------------------9-----------8-----------7-1/2
Inches.--------------.08---------.09----------.095
# per ounce---------585-------410-----------350
Jim, I was thinking more of weighing the shot charge in a powder scale and measuring a random sample with a caliper. I'll try it in a few weeks when I can get to a pawder scale.
http://www.gunshop.com/shotsize.htm
Size-------------------9-----------8-----------7-1/2
Inches.--------------.08---------.09----------.095
# per ounce---------585-------410-----------350
Jim, I was thinking more of weighing the shot charge in a powder scale and measuring a random sample with a caliper. I'll try it in a few weeks when I can get to a pawder scale.
Sven
Senior Member
Glad I found this thread - off to WalMart to pick up some ammo - probably start with the Federal.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Those Feds have lots of happy users, Sven. Do pattern a few for POI and see how and if your 870 "Likes" them.
Fed. Promo's...
They've done alright by me. I've been able to shoot low 20's in trap with them.
I seemed to pick up about 2 clays a round when I switched to AA this season. Although I suspect that has more to do with velocity than the shot or the pattern. (AA's are certainly noticably harder recoiling than Fed. promos in my 870) I certainly shot better this leauge, picking up about 20 more birds than last year.
I suspect that the reason I'm doing better with the AA's is my shooting and not the shells, at least directly. My guess is that the extra velocity, and just perhaps, the harder shot, turns 1-2 clays that would have been a dusted loss with the promo loads, into a break with the AA's, when I did a bad job of getting them centered in the pattern.
So it's my wholly uneducated and intuitive guess that AA's will let you get lucky with a flyer more often since that flyer has just a bit more hardness and velocity than a promo. If you're competent (unlike me ) I doubt it makes a difference in trap at all.
BTW, Dave, what does it mean when you shoot better than you ever have when you pick up a shotgun for the first time in 6 months, then never repeat that performance for the rest of the season?
I shot back to back 23's (my personal best, such as it is) during the handicapping round, and most of my team had similar results, and we did so well we got bumped up a leauge (hint, it' classification has only one letter, if that tells you anything about what a pack of duffers we are.) where we promptly got spanked for the rest of the season.
They've done alright by me. I've been able to shoot low 20's in trap with them.
I seemed to pick up about 2 clays a round when I switched to AA this season. Although I suspect that has more to do with velocity than the shot or the pattern. (AA's are certainly noticably harder recoiling than Fed. promos in my 870) I certainly shot better this leauge, picking up about 20 more birds than last year.
I suspect that the reason I'm doing better with the AA's is my shooting and not the shells, at least directly. My guess is that the extra velocity, and just perhaps, the harder shot, turns 1-2 clays that would have been a dusted loss with the promo loads, into a break with the AA's, when I did a bad job of getting them centered in the pattern.
So it's my wholly uneducated and intuitive guess that AA's will let you get lucky with a flyer more often since that flyer has just a bit more hardness and velocity than a promo. If you're competent (unlike me
) I doubt it makes a difference in trap at all.BTW, Dave, what does it mean when you shoot better than you ever have when you pick up a shotgun for the first time in 6 months, then never repeat that performance for the rest of the season?
I shot back to back 23's (my personal best, such as it is) during the handicapping round, and most of my team had similar results, and we did so well we got bumped up a leauge (hint, it' classification has only one letter, if that tells you anything about what a pack of duffers we are.) where we promptly got spanked for the rest of the season.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Karma, Andrew, a fancy way of saying comeuppance. My version is missing 8 straight shots on dove after going one for one for 6 or 7, just enough to get me thinking I may do the Hat Trick that day.
Dove have my number, so do teal. At SC, I'm getting to where those wabbits get busted more than half the time. The Jumping Teal targets still taunt me.
But every now and then, things fall into place, the moon enters the 7th House,
the stars line up, and birds crash to earth while clay frisbees disintegrate. Then, darned if I can tell what I'm doing right...
Dove have my number, so do teal. At SC, I'm getting to where those wabbits get busted more than half the time. The Jumping Teal targets still taunt me.
But every now and then, things fall into place, the moon enters the 7th House,
the stars line up, and birds crash to earth while clay frisbees disintegrate. Then, darned if I can tell what I'm doing right...
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