how do you get better?

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CAnnoneer

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It seems I have plateaued in improving with a handgun. I do about 3in groups at 25 ft using standing non-propped weaver and 9mm semiautos. The width was attributed to flinching in expectation of recoil/noise/flash, but today I shot a lot of .22 in a Beretta Neon and got the same size groups!

How do I improve beyond this point? Shoot tons of .22 to get better in technique and grip stability before going back to 9mm?
 
Years ago, I couldn't get peaked as you have described. What I ended up doing was shooting an old 22 revolver I had concentrating on sight picture and trigger control. I would shoot 2 or 3 value packs (500+ rounds per pack) every week DA until I go it right...consistently. Then I went back to my other guns. Not only did my shooting get better but I found an appreciation for DA revolvers I never had before
There is no substitute for GOOD practice! ;)
 
ive personally found that if you hit a wall and cant seem to do any better, step away from the gun for a few days even up to a couple weeks. Then when i go back to it i seem to be capable of improvement again.
 
There is no substitute for GOOD practice!
Click to expand...

2nd what 10-ring said. Only perfect practice makes perfect. You can't get better if you don't know what you need to do and what you are doing to prevent better shooting.

Download a copy of the Army Pistol Marksmanship manual and read it, you can find it at http://www.bullseyepistol.com along with a wealth of other knowledge on accurate pistol shooting.

Move that target out to 25 yds and shoot up as much .22 LR as needed to get good at a more dificult range. Your close in shooting will improve greatly. Use bullseye targets and keep score so you have some kind of imperical measurement of progress. There's a couple problems with shooting at such a close range; 1) you have a tendency to look at the target and the holes you are making rather than the front sight. 2) Large targets make for large groups, small targets makes for smaller groups. At 25 ft your target should be one of those paste on orange 1" circle dots, not a 25yd bull or 25yd silhouette.

Some other suggestions; Find an instructor to work with you for a couple lessons. Yes you may have to pay them but in the long run its a faster way to improve than trying to work it all out yourself. Find a local club that shoots .22 matches and join. A little bit of competition along with the help and comraderie of fellow shooters will help a lot too.
 
There is no substitute for GOOD practice!
Click to expand...

2nd what 10-ring said. Only perfect practice makes perfect. You can't get better if you don't know what you need to do and what you are doing to prevent better shooting.

Download a copy of the Army Pistol Marksmanship manual and read it, you can find it at http://www.bullseyepistol.com along with a wealth of other knowledge on accurate pistol shooting.

Move that target out to 25 yds and shoot up as much .22 LR as needed to get good at a more dificult range. Your close in shooting will improve greatly. Use bullseye targets and keep score so you have some kind of imperical measurement of progress. There's a couple problems with shooting at such a close range; 1) you have a tendency to look at the target and the holes you are making rather than the front sight. 2) Large targets make for large groups, small targets makes for smaller groups. At 25 ft your target should be one of those paste on orange 1" circle dots, not a 25yd bull or 25yd silhouette.

Some other suggestions; Find an instructor to work with you for a couple lessons. Yes you may have to pay them but in the long run its a faster way to improve than trying to work it all out yourself. Find a local club that shoots .22 matches and join. A little bit of competition along with the help and comraderie of fellow shooters will help a lot too.
 
Dryfire for 20 minutes every day, make every snap count. This will train your eye, mind and muscle memory. It will also help your weapon handling. Don't scrimp on the dry fire, it costs nothing but time and can help your trigger control and hold better than banging away at close range. Use a small target at the max reasonable range. If it gets boring, stop and do something else-your goal is to build up your ability to concentrate on the task completely.
 
You are keeping both eyes open, arent you? Closing one eye causes problems with shot-to-shot repeatability and target aquisition.
 
I like shooting at 25 yards. I usually have my CZ Kadet .22 right on the bench with whatever else I'm shooting and will make myself shoot 2 mags of .22 in series with the other loads. Shooting smaller targets also helps. Shooting until I've hit the bulls eye gets me focused. 1" target squares at 10-15 yards and 3" circles at 25 yards isn't out of bounds. I don't hit those all the time, but I'm tighteneing my groups shooting at them.

One hour of practice three times per week is more productive than three hours once per week. I'm about 1/2 hour from the range so it is possible for me to go more often.
 
Find someone better than you.

Shoot with him/her, and pick his brain. You will most likely find that there is some sublte attribute that he demonstrates and you do not. It may be minor, but it is enough.

Read everything you can by those who have proven themselves. There is a massive amount of good information out there.

Dobe
 
See if you can get some lessons from a competent, knowledgeable shooting teacher. Shooting is like golfing in that it is easy to pick up bad habits and keep repeating them. Thus, you never really get better. Some solid lessons in learning the right stuff to do and then practice, practice, practice.
 
CAnnoneer said:
ow do I improve beyond this point? Shoot tons of .22 to get better in technique and grip stability before going back to 9mm?
Click to expand...
Basically, there are 3 things that will help you enormously.

(1) Work on the fundamentals. Control your breathing, perfect your sight picture, and squeeze the trigger smoothly and slowly. These are all things you can practice at home by dry firing.

(2) Get help. Identify the really good marksmen at your club (hint: seek out the NRA Bullseye guys). See if they're willing to critique your shooting. Better yet, find a good firearms instructor and get some coaching.

(3) Start competing. This is what worked for me. I started with NRA Bullseye, moved into PPC, and later added pin shooting. Now I'm looking into action shooting. Competition forces you to work on accuracy and to concentrate on the fundamentals. The other competitors may also give you some useful tips.

I would do the above steps in more or less that order. Fundamentals, training, and competition. It really works!
 
Good stuff said. Getting back to fundamentals, having a pro give you pointers and evaluate you (reverse order), interact with others that are at a higher level.

I find when I hit the wall at anything, I tend to push harder. And get no results. Taking a step back, refreshing your mind, taking a breath really do help. The thing about going at it too hard it that you tend to lose the big picture of what you are doing, while repeating your mistakes with a high degree of focus. And when your mind gets tired of whatever you are doing, it starts wandering.
 
As others have noted - pay attention to fundamentals.

If you change something, only change ONE THING at a time. That way you can tell if the change improves, detracts, or doesn't matter.
 
Dairycreek's analogy to golf is a good one. Shooting is like any sport. You may get better with practice but not everyone will be a Tiger Woods. Some people, no matter how much practice, will never be outstanding shooters just as some will never be outstanding golfers. Practice and instructions from a good, knowledgeable shooter may help but don't expect to be doing 2" groups with 1 hand at 50 meters just because you may have seen someone else shoot that kind of group.
 
Good advice.

I think getting help -- preferrably PROFESSIONAL HELP -- is a very good next step.

Motivation and practice aren't enough, 'cause you may be motivated to practice things that hurt (or don't help). As someone said, perfect practice makes perfect, but imperfect practice makes a mess of things.

Get an instructor. It can make a BIG difference.
 
Walt is COmpletely correct

Get a trainer.. a REAL trainer. I lucked out and met a retired Quantico (FBI) range officer who was quite brittle. Rude is better and more accurate.

I had to fire all his weapons before he was satisfied that I could "understand HIM". I then was allowed to shoot my own pistol (at that time it was a CZ40B) and he spotted numerous bad habits I picked up trying to be "Gene Autry!" he said.

50 hours with him changed everything. Not only the presentation changed, but the targeting, the double tap method, the magazine ejection before empty, the non-aimed (instinctive) first shots at close range... but most of all.. the CONFIDENCE changed.. It feel really good to know that I could go to the FBI pistol range and shoot with those folks and qualify. Other weapons I am not ready for, but my semi-autos yes.

I also shoot 1-200 rounds per week. I reload my own brass and anybody else's that will donate. It is way cheaper and I KNOW what I am getting and know immediately that it is not the ammo if I start spreading my groups. NOTHING replaces practice after somebody trains you.

Hats off to Walt
Plain:)
 
I posted this before, so here goes. Professionals? Not everyone has access to pros and if they charge a fee, can you afford it along with lots of practice rounds?

Years ago I had 2 consistent shooting partners. We devised a plan to improve our long range accuracy. When shooting revolvers, we would let someone else load our pistol. This meant you may have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or no rounds in the cylinder, in any random order. You can do this on your own by loading some dummy rounds and mixing them with your good rounds. You never know what your hammer will drop on. Makes you really concentrate on the trigger pull, I mean really concentrate. Do this for several hundred rounds and you'll be shooting limbs out of trees, I promise.

With an auto, again load some dummy rounds and fill your mag. Same principle, you'll never know what your hammer will fall on. If you flinch, you'll know it, big time. I did this off and on for years, and the end result is marksmanship worthy of the pistol you shoot.

You will also be able to effectively critique the accuracy potential of another pistol. Trust me, this works.
 
What you describe is a good technique to get rid of a flinch/improve your trigger pull. But that's just ONE SMALL PART of becoming a more effective and more accurate shooter...

How about improving your draw, or improving your effectiveness as you move forward and backward? Or changing mags more quickly with less chance of a fumble. Or simply learning how to handle recoil effectively, so that you can shoot multiple rounds rapidly with accuracy. How about training for malfunctions?

Professional shooters are far more common than you think. Most pistol ranges have them running classes. Most IDPA or IPSC clubs can put you in touch with them -- indeed, some of the top shooters in these clubs are professionals and will do classes for a very reasonable amount. Getting instruction is not as expensive as you'd might think, and it can make a WORLD of difference
 
Walt - I didn't read where he wanted to get better at games but that he wanted to get smaller groups. Most of the fire and maneuver stuff is not applicable to shooting real small groups. More like hitting a pretty large target with two rapid shots that can be far apart but still maximum score. ;)
 
Switch hands.

I shoot until my right hand shakes and I have trouble getting the muzzle to stand still. Then I go lefty until the same happens on that side.
I found that my left handed groups are tighter, (right handed) because I can't anticipate the trigger break as easily. Sight picture never changes, as I'm left eye dominant, and shoot pistol with my right eye closed. I'm making ragged holes at 15 yards lefty. I can't do that with my dominant hand yet.
 
I still say there's more involved than trigger control.

If small groups and small groups only is the issue, then trigger control is important. But if small groups RAPIDLY is a concern, then trigger control alone isn't enough. Bullseye has rapid-fire events. too, I think --and self defense situations, which can always arise don't wait for you to get steady... (When I took my first concealed carry course a few years back, one of the shooters almost failed because he simply was obsessed with small groups and couldn't get the rounds off fast enough to meet the time requirements. He shot small groups, VERY SLOWLY. He simply couldn't help himself.)

If it were just trigger control, I think there'd be a lot more folks doing great in Bullseye than is, in fact, the case.

The U.S. Army Marksmanship Training Unit Manual/Guide addresses the other factors, and its available at a number of places on the net, and then there's always http://www.bullseyepistol.com/-- one of the BETTER resources on the net for shooters. (You can find the USAMTU guide there, too.)

Little things like laying off the caffeine make a BIG difference.
 
Walt Sherrill said:
What you describe is a good technique to get rid of a flinch/improve your trigger pull. But that's just ONE SMALL PART of becoming a more effective and more accurate shooter...
Click to expand...
Exactly. People on this forum get too hung up on flinching and trigger pull. Just as important as trigger pull is BREATH CONTROL and SIGHT PICTURE.

Trigger pull is certainly important, but you'll never get really good until you master breath control and sight picture as well.

Walt Sherrill said:
How about improving your draw, or improving your effectiveness as you move forward and backward? Or changing mags more quickly with less chance of a fumble. Or simply learning how to handle recoil effectively, so that you can shoot multiple rounds rapidly with accuracy. How about training for malfunctions?
Click to expand...
That's all important as well. But then again, you've got to walk before you run. What good is running around and practicing speed reloads if you can't hit the bullseye even when standing perfectly still?

I still say, learn the fundamentals first (i.e., breath control, sight picture, trigger squeeze). Once you have that down, then you can work on moving while shooting, speed reloads, and other more advanced skills.
 
Dry fire. Do this at home every night and work other things while your doing it. Draw and dry fire, reload and dry fire, malf. drills and dry fire, move and dry fire, etc. Just make sure your getting good snaps, the rest is just to keep it interesting.

Aim small, miss small use a small reactive target if possible. Stapling a bottle cap to the target, a 1" roofing cap nail etc. that goes flying when hit makes things more fun and interesting.

Vary your range. Platued at 25ft? Move the target in to 9ft (3yds) and try some of the dot drills out there. They'll make you work, and tigthen your shooting. Also back the target up, put it at the 25 yd line (75ft) and shoot some for the heck of it. Coming back to 25ft will seem like the easiest thing in the world.

That's off the top of my head, enjoy and good luck.

-Jenrick
 
I think that before he gets into drawing & movement etc. he should work on getting his basic marksmanship down pat. For me, the best practice help was Dry Fire - Dry Fire - Dry Fire and more Dry Fire. I keep a pistol at my "Nest" and as I watch TV I Dry Fire over and over. Learning to concentrate on the front sight, and keeping it still, was a big help, learning how to squeeze the trigger, keeping both eyes open and many other skills can be refined this way. And then, Practice - Practice - Practice. Listen to old hands, you will find plenty at the range, consider their advice and if it pertains, try it. Read this and other forums faithfully, Tons of great info in them.
 
Improvement

Gentlemen...it's Dry Practice...Dry Practice...Dry Practice.... Dry fire is an oxymoron..how can you fire an empty weapon..?? And by the by..."shooting is bad for shooting"...
 
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