How fast is too fast?

[Mr_Flintstone]

I've reloaded lots of cast 357 magnum for revolvers, but I worry about leading when using some of them in my Henry rifle. One particular load is rated at well over 2200 fps out of the 20 inch barrel. Should I use a gas check at that velocity? And what about HI-Tek coated bullets? What velocity are they good to?

 

[dgod]

My personal preference, I gas check anything over about 1200fps. No specific rhyme nor reason, just how I feel.

Have you checked your Henry for Leading? you may or may not have leading, if so I would start with the Gas Checks.

Good Luck, Just my $0.02
dg

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

My personal preference, I gas check anything over about 1200fps. No specific rhyme nor reason, just how I feel.

Have you checked your Henry for Leading? you may or may not have leading, if so I would start with the Gas Checks.

Good Luck, Just my $0.02
dg

I only fired a few lead rounds through it, and they were modest loads. I use lead in my S&W Model 19 frequently, but I don't load them full power. Ive loaded mostly XTP and Hi-Tek for the rifle so far. I was just wondering because I was planning to load some lead "carbine rounds". I know there shouldn't be a difference between rifle and pistol rounds, but like I said, I don't really "enjoy" shooting full power 357 from a revolver that much, and I was going to go closer to max loads with these.

 

[Hanshi]

Gas check lead bullets are my favorite in the .357mag. With the bullet base covered by the metal cup there's no possibility of the base melting and depositing lead in the forcing cone or bore.

 

[Scooter22]

I only fired a few lead rounds through it, and they were modest loads. I use lead in my S&W Model 19 frequently, but I don't load them full power. Ive loaded mostly XTP and Hi-Tek for the rifle so far. I was just wondering because I was planning to load some lead "carbine rounds".
I know there shouldn't be a difference between rifle and pistol rounds, but like I said, I don't really "enjoy" shooting full power 357 from a revolver that much, and I was going to go closer to max loads with these.

Well depending on what powder your using you may get a couple 100 fps boost in the longer barrel vs the revolver because all the powder is burning. Also depends on what alloy your using and if you quench or heat treat the boolits. From what I've read powder coating works great for higher velocities and I plan on trying it. But may man cast bullet shooting is out of 30-30s (2 Marlins and 2 Winchesters.) Old WWs baked in the oven to harden them and a double coat of Lee liquid alox. I push them up to 2000fps with no leading and normal accuracy.

 

[dgod]

It is my belief, Identical loads fired in a Pistol and in a Rifle, the Rifle will have higher 1)Pressure, and 2) Velocity.

dg

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

I may have been a little unclear with what I said. I meant to say that there should be no difference in a "revolver round" or "carbine round". It's the same round. It will perform differently out of the two, however. For me, though, I load "revolver rounds" more like a 38 special +P, and "carbine rounds" more toward the hot end; even though I know both will work just fine in the other gun. Sorry if I misspoke.

 

[Demi-human]

It is my belief, Identical loads fired in a Pistol and in a Rifle, the Rifle will have higher 1)Pressure, and 2) Velocity.

Velocity I can see, or have seen, but how would the cartridge know to have more pressure?

 

[dgod]

It is my belief: Velocity is a direct result of Pressure. Pressure builds up to cause a bullet to depart. Higher pressure yields higher velocity.

Just my $0.02
dg

 

[Ru4real]

I think powder that burns too hot can melt Hi-Tek coating, something a gas check would prevent.

I tried the MBC 45 Hi-Tek coated 215 grain grooveless Brinnel 20 in 45 ACP. With powder CFE pistol, that bullet caused leading in 3 different guns. I switched powder to Hodgdon Universal, same velocity, no leading.

 

[Demi-human]

Just my $0.02
dg

Very good. Just wondering, Thanks.

 

[Walkalong]

The biggest difference in shooting lead in a long rifle barrel is the lube. The longer barrel needs more. If you get leading near the end of the barrel only, you are using the wrong lube or not enough lube. The pressure is the same. Yes, the velocity is more, but isn't the biggest factor IMHO. The alloy has to be strong enough to hold the rifling of course, so may need to be a little stronger than for a revolver using the same load.Most commercial cast bullets are strong enough to handle it, although these days we are finally seeing "hard cast" bullets in the 12 BHN range which is a good thing for pistols.

 

[Walkalong]

It is my belief: Velocity is a direct result of Pressure. Pressure builds up to cause a bullet to depart. Higher pressure yields higher velocity.

Just my $0.02
dg

To a point, pressure behind the bullet longer gives the highest velocities. A very fast powder at max pressure will be wasted in a long barrel, while a slow powder will take advantage of it. My 9MM AR is a great example. My N320 load gains almost no velocity from a 5"pistol barrel to a 16" AR barrel, while medium speed powders like AA #5, HS-6 etc will gain 200 to 300 FPS. The slowest powder that can get to max pressure in the barrel will give the highest velocity. A faster powder can actually give less velocity at max pressure.

 

[Walkalong]

It is my belief, Identical loads fired in a Pistol and in a Rifle, the Rifle will have higher 1)Pressure, and 2) Velocity.

dg

I would love to see a quickload calculation on that, but I believe the pressure will be the same (Assuming the same type action) and only the velocity will be more, depending on the powder. Too fast of a powder and there can be virtually no gain in velocity despite the pressure being the same. It has a very quick peak pressure, vs the slow pressure curve of a slower powder, maintaining pressure on the bullet for a longer time.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

The load I was talking about was 125 gr lead over IMR-4227. I know that's a fairly slow powder for pistols, but should perform much better in a rifle. According to load data, from a 4 inch barrel ir runs about 1500 fps. From a 20 inch barrel, a little over 2200 fps. I'm using Hunters Supply hard cast with a BHN of 15. I was able to find out that Midway USA says their rated at 1600 fps. I'm guessing that a gas check would be in order for that velocity.

 

[bluetopper]

I'd have to see it before I'd believe 4227 would push a 125gr bullet out of Mag brass at 2200fps. H-110 or 2400 maybe, possibly.
At that velocity you are at the cusp of being too fast for even gas check bullets.

 

[buck460XVR]

I'd have to see it before I'd believe 4227 would push a 125gr bullet out of Mag brass at 2200fps. H-110 or 2400 maybe, possibly.
At that velocity you are at the cusp of being too fast for even gas check bullets.

I tend to agree with the first statement, but only agree with the second to the point of cost. The minute you start buying GC lead 125s, you may as well buy bulk jacketed. If you cast and GC your own, there may be a cost advantage, but other than that, why not just shoot jacketed.

 

[fxvr5]

It is my belief: Velocity is a direct result of Pressure. Pressure builds up to cause a bullet to depart. Higher pressure yields higher velocity.

dg

I would love to see a quickload calculation on that, but I believe the pressure will be the same (Assuming the same type action) and only the velocity will be more, depending on the powder. Too fast of a powder and there can be virtually no gain in velocity despite the pressure being the same. It has a very quick peak pressure, vs the slow pressure curve of a slower powder, maintaining pressure on the bullet for a longer time.

According to QuickLOAD, pressure peaks by the time the bullet has moved 0.43 inches with 4227, and 0.59 inches with 296. (More-or-less arbitrary charge weights plugged into 357 magnum example.)

Chamber pressure peaks very quickly, and as shown in the 357 magnum, before the bullet has moved one (1) inch down the bore.

Here's a pressure curve for a 38 Super. Pressure peaks when the bullet is at the 1" mark, and given the length of the cartridge taking up a good portion of that length (the pressure curve starts at about 0.7"). http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2014/04/Figure-5-compensators-Pressure-or-Gas.jpg

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Hodgdon reloading lists 125 gr XTP with 4227 at just over 2100 fps. That would probably be a better option than trying to go gc/lead.

One other question while we're on the subject. Would it be OK to use XTP load data for jacketed soft point using the same seat depth?

 

[dgod]

Great Info fxvr5, I would love to see comparative velocities with the data shown in say 5" pistol compared to say 18" rifle. My curiosity being the difference if any in pressure, as well as if any, differences in velocities.

Thanks
dg

 

[Bfh_auto]

I was running a MBC 158 Action at 360 Dan Wesson overall length and a case full of h110. It was accurate at 2050 fps but started leading after about 10 rounds. Following book 357 data didn't give me any leading problems so I use it. This is in a Rossi 92.

 

[Varminterror]

It is my belief: Velocity is a direct result of Pressure. Pressure builds up to cause a bullet to depart. Higher pressure yields higher velocity.

Just my $0.02
dg

I’d ask for your money back...

The revolver WILL typically yield a lower net pressure, because the MAP spike happens PAST the B/C gap, which bleeds off a bit of pressure, compared to a sealed breach & bore rifle.

But your belief the velocity is an indicator of pressure isn’t even pseudo science, it’s just really, really wrong.

 

[brewer12345]

Hodgdon reloading lists 125 gr XTP with 4227 at just over 2100 fps. That would probably be a better option than trying to go gc/lead.

One other question while we're on the subject. Would it be OK to use XTP load data for jacketed soft point using the same seat depth?

I think once you are over 1800 FPS with cast you are into the sort of territory that will require a lot of experimentation and fooling around with things like gas checks, lubes, bullet sizes, alloys, etc. I would use jacketed for that sort of load. Yes, XTP data should be fine for JSPs, but work the load up.

 

[fxvr5]

Great Info fxvr5, I would love to see comparative velocities with the data shown in say 5" pistol compared to say 18" rifle. My curiosity being the difference if any in pressure, as well as if any, differences in velocities.

Thanks
dg

QuickLOAD does not differentiate between different types of firearms. No need to. Varminterror notes revolvers might has lower peak pressure because of their design with the cylinder/barrel gap. Maybe, maybe not, given that pressure peaks so quickly, 0.28 inches of barrel travel (see below), which means the bullet might not be out of the cylinder yet.

In any case, barrel length does not affect peak pressure because pressure peaks after less than 1" of movement, often long before that (at least in handgun cartridges). Pressure declines after that but the bullet is still accelerating. See this graph: http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/i/Tech Diagrams/QuickLoad_Chartx400.gif The blue line is bullet speed, the red line is pressure.

QuickLOAD parameters: 125 grain XTP. Overall length 1.590, IMR 4227, 20.0 grains (max charge).

5" barrel; pressure 45,456 psi, velocity 1581 fps
18" barrel; pressure 45,456 psi, velocity 2097 fps

Bullet travel at peak pressure: 0.28 inches.

 

[Havok7416]

You can get a properly coated (and sized) bullet up around 2,700 FPS, but certain powders will eat or destroy the coating if they sit too long. They do not require a gas check below that magic number and the coating provides all the lube you need.