How Good Is Good?

[Chocolate Bayou]

I've only been shooting a couple of years and have a variety of guns. i shoot at an indoor range,really nice, latest equipment etc. By no means do I suck because usually i'm shooting at targets 30-40 feet and usually have nice groupings. When I'm finished I usually walk down and check other shooters and i'm probably in the upper quarter. Then I'm always reading on here how so and so shoots 1-1/2" groupings offhand @ 30-50 YARDS using non-custom out of the box pistols. Are there a lot of guys that good, and I suck or are people blowing smoke up our rear? Just wondering.

 

[sigarms228]

IMO there are a lot of fish stories going on.

Very top tier shooters "might" be able to do what you describe but that is probably .005 percent of the shooting population.

At my range most are shooting at large targets 10 FEET away and 80 percent have difficulty keeping most the rounds on that.

On a good day myself I can keep about 10 out of 15 rounds on a 5.5 inch Orange Peel target at 75 feet and I am happy with that. Believe it or not.

 

[tahunua001]

agree with sigarms. there are truly great shooters that miss a lot of shots by a lot wider margins than what many here claim to get. I normally shot in increments of 3, 7, 15, and 25 yards, by 25 yards I am barely able to keep the shots inside a b27 targets margins and I still have a lot of shooters claim that I am pretty good. move online and I am a severely deficient shooter that should be ashamed of the groups I'm getting.

 

[Hometeached1]

I'm no where near that good. On a really good day I can get 10 out of 10 rounds on a 11"x 8" piece of paper with my bone stock 642 at 25 yards offhand.

15 out of 15 on a 8" paper plate with my G19 at 25 yards offhand is a good day.

 

[Valkman]

I used to shoot Bullseye and had to hit a 1" bull at 25 yards but anymore I am not that good and tend to shoot for "combat effectiveness". If I shoot a good group to center mass at 10 yards I am happy but with my longer barreled guns like my 629 I can shoot much better. I just got an XDS in .45 and that is not a long range gun so I stay about 10-12 yards and just try to hit a paper plate size target instead of going for extreme accuracy.

 

[Steve C]

A typical non target grade service handgun is capable of shooting minimum 3" groups at 25yds and 6" at 50 yds from machine rest. If you read the gun reviews in the American Rifleman and other gun magazines the tested accuracy of most handguns is generally around 2 to 3" at 25 yds when shot rested off sandbags (see below). One can get individual groups much smaller but generally they are an aberation and not really representative of the shooters or firearms ability over many rounds. We all like to show the really good groups, me included, and tend to let the readers draw their own conclusions about how good we can or can not shoot. If you use NRA bullseye targets here are the rankings for shooters: Marksman (360 recorded shots but below the 85% mark), Sharpshooter (85-89.99%), Expert (90-94.99%), Master (95-96.99%) and High Master (97% and above). Their targets however are shot unsupported with one hand only.

A slow fire 50 yd NRA target will have an 8" black bull covering the 8, 9 and 10 rings. The 10 ring is 3-1/4" D and the X ring is 1-1/2" D. The same target ring size is used at the 25 yd timed and rapid fire events but the bull is 5-1/2" and covers out to the 9 ring to give the same relative sight picture at the closer range. Even with master level shooters it is relatively rare to see all shots in the 1-1/2" X-ring. At our club they are usually posted on the bulletin board for every one's awe and applause. Haven't see one since 2010.

If you want to know how good a shot you are you need a standard method as a basis of comparison. Go out and shoot standard targets at the distances they are designed for in the way they are to be shot (IE. slow deliberate fire, timed or rapid fire.). Score your targets and keep track. This will give you a method of caparison and a way to gage progress and improvement.

The example below is from "The American Rifleman" test on the Sig 227 April 2014 issue.

 

[mls]

Agree Steve C. A trip to Camp Perry with the ever changing weather conditions (and always the wind} is definitely an eyeopener to the uniniated. Sure there are match grade pistols and ammo. But, shooting 2650+ out of 2700 possible points in those conditions is nothing short of incredible. The difference in being a Master or High Master shooter and everyone else is mental. We can all go to the range and shoot hours and hours, shoot thousands of rounds but not get the mental side of practice and competition. That's where the difference is. Dosen't matter which sport or endevor. Defensive shooting or target, makes no difference.

 

[Chocolate Bayou]

Steve C,
I'm not that interested in shooting from a mechanical rest. I know I will never be a bulls eye shooter as I have had 5 shoulder surgeries including 3 shoulder replacements, last one was a "total reverse replacement" where i have a rod inside my arm bone with the socket attached to it. The ball is mounted on a platform attached to my scapula. I have no rotator cuff and they had to to attach my deltoid muscle to the arm bone to raise and lower my arm. I can shoot my first 75-100 rounds pretty accurately, but then my shoulder looses it's steadiness. I just want to be center mass around 40' (inside 8 ring is my goal) I'm shooting a springfield lightweight loaded, a Colt gov't 38 super and a XD 9mm tactical with 5" barrel. Close is good enough for me.

 

[benzy2]

There are many who post on here that are honest top tier shooters. There are also many who use the internet to adjust reality.

I find my handgun skills fade very quickly with minimal practice. After a month or two of no pistol shooting, I'm looking like a shotgun hit my target low left. With a bit of consistent, structured practice that gets better quickly. Still, without dedicating my life to bullseye shooting, I don't think I'd come close to shooting twice what the gun is capable of shooting.

 

[Big Shrek]

Yer fine, keep doing what you are doing.

Age takes its toll...but its better than pushing up daisies

 

[skoro]

are people blowing smoke up our rear?

I find it gets awful smokey sometimes when folks begin bragging about their marksmanship.

 

[Schwing]

I have been shooting for a long time and rarely get the "1 inch grouping at 25 yards." From a rest that is another story but who is going to shoot from a rest when the bad guy comes knocking

I find my handgun skills fade very quickly with minimal practice. After a month or two of no pistol shooting, I'm looking like a shotgun hit my target low left. With a bit of consistent, structured practice that gets better quickly. Still, without dedicating my life to bullseye shooting, I don't think I'd come close to shooting twice what the gun is capable of shooting.

I couldn't agree more. I started casting my own bullets a little over a year ago and have been doing a lot of bench rest shooting to test accuracy. The last few months, I have noticed that my accuracy has suffered severely... I mean like 6-8 inch groupings from 15 yards! I now stand up for the last 30 minutes or so. Those 1" groupings I was getting from a rest were going to my head while my real shooting skills were going into the toilet.

 

[ATLDave]

One can get individual groups much smaller but generally they are an aberation and not really representative of the shooters or firearms ability over many rounds.

This is a critical, critical point that 90+% of the gun-shooting population seems to not understand. If you shoot 20 groups, and then pick the smallest one, you haven't picked a group that demonstrates the peak accuracy of you or the gun or anything of the sort. In all likelihood, you have picked a group where your errors and the deviation of the pistol happened to cancel each other out through random chance.

Saying that a pistol is "capable of 1" groups at 50 yards" on the basis of one cherry-picked 5-shot group is like claiming that any baseball pitcher who has ever struck out the side is perfectly capable of throwing a perfect game. It's ridiculous.

 

[mgmorden]

Really depends on what you're shooting for. Groups (precision) is different than accuracy. There are shooters who desire one or the other (or both).

Speed can also come into play. Would you rather be able to shoot one group with 2 seconds between shots or a slightly larger group with 0.5" between shots?

In the end, "good", is what you make of it. One of the main things I do when I practice is a 6 plate rack. If I can draw and knock down all the plates from 15 yards in less than 4 seconds then I'm happy.

 

[fedlaw]

There are folks capable of consistent near perfect target shooting. Some years ago in our PPC League on the last day of the combat course of fire a CPD range officer, Dora Rogers, stepped up to the line at our local pd indoor range and shot 10 rounds of 48 shots each @7, 15 and 25 yds, all timed and all against competitors. She scored a 4797 out of 4800, with 473 X's. The next season I was told she fell ill and dropped out of competition. I have been shooting and competing for many years. This past season I was ranked HighMaster in Off-Duty and Expert in Bullseye, last season I shot one perfect target in Combat, but I have never seen anyone even in the same universe as Dora on that day.

 

[Japle]

You’ll never know just how good you are compared to other shooters until you shoot in competition. And the type of competition matters.
Some shooters can produce 2” groups at 25 yds on demand, but will completely miss an 18”X24” target at 21 feet in the “Smoke & Hope” stage. Actually, all shooters will sometimes miss that big target when they’re really pushing it.

The most successful shooters I’ve known, no matter what the game, can shoot excellent groups on demand. At 10 yds, you should be able to create one big hole with any reasonably accurate centerfire pistol and 10 rounds of decent ammo. If you’re shooting 4-6” groups at that range, you still have work to do.

 

[SC Shooter]

If you witness it at the range, believe it. If you read it here or in other forums, take it with a grain of salt. This may come as a shock to you, but people will exagerate and sometimes even lie.

 

[rs7]

The first shots at the range are the most important; because when you need your pistol,the first shots are the most important. No time to warm up.

 

[Japle]

SC Shooter is right.
When you see photos like the one below, always look for powder burns.

 

[ljnowell]

I shoot bullseye competitively so I probably am one of those guys. I have a 285 index average and have shot a 291 as my highest score.

I meet lots of people that tell me they shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards. When I take them shooting at the eange where I compete and they stand on the 25 yard line most say something along the lines of "that's way farther than 25 yards!!" Then when they start shooting its a real eye opener for them.

They usually then decline to shoot a bullseye competition.

 

[GLOOB]

4-5" group at 50 feet offhand is pretty good to me. I shoot a little better with some guns, a lot worse with others.

Although I do plink soda can sized targets at (what I think is) around 75 yards offhand with a G21. I don't hit 'em every time, but I seem to average around a 20-30% hit rate at that distance over the course of several mags. I have centerpunched three in a row, but that's cherry picking. One of these days I'll have to bring a laser rangefinder out to the impromptu rifle range where I shoot. With every other handgun I own, I am just wasting ammunition at that distance, shooting unsupported. Even with my Ruger MkIII target. Maybe the size of the 45 caliber bullet helps.

First time I took my GF shooting, she had only been shooting once before in her life. She shot a small J frame 38 revolver once. I don't remember if it was my idea or hers to start off with the G21. Well, she hit a soda can at 20 feet. Again and again. Like almost rapidfire. She hit 12 out of 13 shots on a can that was dancing away the whole time. I think my G21 is blessed. And that my GF might be a sandbagger.

 

[Japle]

I shot the IHMSA standing class at the Internationals one year next to the current world record holder. I’d held the record myself several years before. We both got our butts kicked.

If you’re not familiar with that game, it involves shooting open-sight production handguns at 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters from the unsupported standing position. Anyone who can get 65%+ hits was considered pretty stiff competition. I was shooting a Wichita single-shot pistol in 7mm International Rimmed with a 9oz trigger pull. That gun would group on a soda can at 200 meters, but not from standing with me at the controls.

 

[Delford]

Love it, GLOOB! She didn't have anything to unlearn or prove.

 

[Delford]

I shoot at the farm and can hit 8" groups from 25 yards with my Ruger P345. At 7 yards that tightens up considerably as that's where it will count. I can do 2.5" groups with my Beretta Neos and 3.5" groups with the Ruger. Every now and then I get a group that's an inch tighter with either but as an early poster said, that's just random.

I practice with golf balls on a string from 7 yards with my Neos and hit about 40% on a good day. This is the target set up when a friend shot. We shot into root balls from downed trees backed by a hill past the trees. (It's safe)

 

[zerobarrier]

I never measured groups with a handgun before. I shoot metal plates in my back yard with handguns. Distances from 10yds-75yards. I hit 4in plates on a dueling tree 10yards away almost everytime with all my handguns 22lr all the way to 50ae. I am not sure if thats good but it sure it fun. The only thing I try to do for practice is draw and double tap with my carry gun. I do this at 10 yards on a ar500 buffalo's head at centermass height about 5' it is 15"x18". I have gotten pretty good with my 1911. I can get them down to about 2"-3" apart doing what I think is a pretty fast double tap