How hot is too hot?

[civilian75]

I need expert opinion about handloading for straightwall hangund calibers. I recently took up reloading 357Mag. I am developing a hot (the hottest possible) I chose Hornady's 125hr HP/XTP bullet. I worked it up to the hottest load with 2400: 16.9gr. Since magnum primers are not required with 2400, I picked a couple of CCI500 at Bi-Mart. I sort of liked the results but expected higher muzzle velocities (mv). So, I decided pick up a few CCI-550 (magnum) boxes, too (Note that Hornady data was developed with WSPM).

I really liked the results: great accuracy (less than 3" at 25yd) and thats pretty darn good for me, and excellent mv spread (stdev: 9)! But I have a feeling I may be a bit too hot. What tipped me? I rarely ever get any mv close to Hornady's handbook, especially when bbl length difference are involved. I am almost invariable 50 to 150fps slower. This time, after adjusting for crony distance, I am essentially "on the money" with Hornady. Only problem is their test gun has a 8" bbl whereas my 686 is a mere 4". That makes me nervous.

I know how to recognize high pressure symptoms on rifle cartridges, but I am at a loss with revolver cartridges. Here is the data:

.................Hornady data..................my data
Handgun.....Colt Python 8" bbl............SW686 4" bbl
Case..........Frontier..........................W-W
primer........WSPM............................CCI550
OAL...........1.590"............................1.590"
mv(fps)......1400..............................1350 (12' from muzzle)
charge (1)..16.9gr............................16.9gr
powder.......2400..............................2400

Note 1: each charge individually weighted with a RCBS "mechanical" scale (I no longer trust my electronic scale).

Here are some observations:
* Used new brass
* Average velocity: 1350fps, stdev 9, measured 12ft from muzzle. Actual mv approx. 1380 to 1390fps!
* Brass extracted easily. I did not notice any difference between my hot load vs. say factory 38spc extraction
* No flattened primers
* Breech face machine marks extruded into case primer (see pic below). The hot load to the left (marked with red magic marker); a milder (one less grain and no magnum primer), but still hot to the right. Both are "extruded" but the hot load is more noticeable. You will also notice a a few machine marks extruded into the brass itself around the primer pocket border.
* Uneven case expansion (see pic below). The case diameter measured at the red magic marker marks, from top to bottom": .375", .375", .381", .381", .381", .380", .380", and .378".
* Cylinder chambers diameter: .385" (+/- .0005)

Based on this data, is this load too hot?

Pics: http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd409/civilian75/Forum%20Pics/

 

[243winxb]

Your photo link needs a pass word. Working now.

 

[civilian75]

Oooops! Took password off.

 

[Ruger GP100 fan]

For what it's worth the Spears #14 manual that came with my Rockchucker advises against using magnum primers with 2400 powder (page 892).

 

[Hondo 60]

OK, I'm confused.
By the title I thought you were gonna exceed the max powder charge.
According to Alliant the max on a Speer 125 gr GDHP is 17.5 gr.
So you're well under the max.

The pics show no flattening of the primer (not that's a definitive indicator).

But, I'd say no, it's not too hot.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just because you are getting good velocity doesn't mean you are overpressure. Like said above, you are nowhere near the MAX charge and you have no problems extracting the brass. I would be happy about your ammo in this case.

 

[Steve C]

Primers look normal, velocities are below factory published ballistics of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel. You don't have anything to worry about.

 

[243winxb]

The case diameter measured at the red magic marker marks, from top to bottom": .375", .375", .381", .381", .381", .380", .380", and .378".

The brass web area at .375" , if same as new brass, should not expand, if it does, your to hot.

Average velocity: 1350fps, stdev 9, measured 12ft from muzzle. Actual mv approx. 1380 to 1390fps!

Difference gaps (.004" to .009") between the barrel and cylinders can effect velocity as more gas is vented with the larger. Your OK pressure wise.

 

[civilian75]

Thanks for all the good feedback. You guys made me look again at my Sierra manual and lo and behold: max load is 19gr with CCI550! How could I have missed that?!?! No matter how different the two 125gr mfg bullets can be (i.e. bearing surface and metallurgy), that is a full frigging 2gr difference!!

I needed your feedback to insure I was reading the fired cases correctly, being a newbie with handgun cartridge reloading. This was the main purpose of this post! I am surprised nobody commented on the breech face extrusion into the primers and cases! On a bolt rifle, that's something I cannot ignore.

A couple more questions/comments:

Hondo 60 said,

According to Alliant the max on a Speer 125 gr GDHP is 17.5 gr. So you're well under the max.

Hmmm! This data was developed for CCI500 and a different bullet with different bearing surface and metallurgy.

Steve C said,

velocities are below factory published ballistics of 1,450 fps from a 4" barrel. You don't have anything to worry about.

That' sweet! Who published data for a 4" bbl?. I'd love to check it out!

Ruger GP100 fan said,

For what it's worth the Spears #14 manual that came with my Rockchucker advises against using magnum primers with 2400 powder (page 892).

And that's because they developed the data with non-magnum (CCI500) primers. Both Hornady and Sierra developed all their data with magnum (CCI550) primers, so it must mean that the warning is limited to Speer data. Can we agree? You gotta love 2400 versatility!

243winxb said,

The brass web area at .375", if same as new brass, should not expand, if it does, your to hot.

Factory brass web area measures .375", too. Thanks. But, this brings me to a sort-of unrelated question. RCBS re-size/decapping die would not evenly resize my brass. It leaves a .377" bulge just under the web area, where I got the .381" measurements. It used to unnerve me at first. I am taking the opportunity to ask if this is a common occurrence. Do other die mfg dies do the same? After it's all done (resize and mouth expansion), it is no longer a straight walled but a sinewy walled case.

 

[teumessian_fox]

Just my opinion, but for a revolver like the Python, I don't like to batter it with maximum charges. I save that for my recently manufactured and easily replaceable Ruger gP 100.

But that's just me.

For my Pythons I use 38 special or maybe +P (approximate) loads.

 

[243winxb]

Good Question- Do other die mfg dies do the same?

But, this brings me to a sort-of unrelated question. RCBS re-size/decapping die would not evenly resize my brass. It leaves a .377" bulge just under the web area, where I got the .381" measurements. It used to unnerve me at first. I am taking the opportunity to ask is if this is a common occurrence. Do other die mfg dies do the same?

i think RCBS owners will always have a part of the brass that is not sized. The die can not touch the shell holder, plus it has a bevel,as most brands do, to help feeding of brass on a progressive. The web area, being much thicker, should never need sizing, is my guess. I use RCBS.

 

[cfullgraf]

But, this brings me to a sort-of unrelated question. RCBS re-size/decapping die would not evenly resize my brass. It leaves a .377" bulge just under the web area, where I got the .381" measurements. It used to unnerve me at first. I am taking the opportunity to ask if this is a common occurrence. Do other die mfg dies do the same? After it's all done (resize and mouth expansion), it is no longer a straight walled but a sinewy walled case.

I used to have a .357 mag carbide resize die that would leave a bulge on the bottom of the case. The bulge would get so bad that cases would not chamber in any of my .357 magnum firearms.

The load was just under the published maximum and cases did not stick in the chambers upon extraction. (I wonder if the bulge was caused by the case material being pushed ahead of the die body)

I had to use the old steel die for .357 Mag cases to get rid of the bulge. Eventually, I bought a new carbide 357 Magnum carbide die from a different manufacturer and it resized the case low enough to remove the bulge.

The difference between the old carbide die and the steel die and the new carbide was there was a larger chamfer in the ring at the base of the die. It was obvious that the old die did not sized the case down as far as the others. Not by much, but a noticeable difference.

 

[Steve C]

That' sweet! Who published data for a 4" bbl?. I'd love to check it out!

125gr jhp Remington express .357 mag

125gr jhp Winchester Super X .357 mag

125gr jhp Federal .357 mag

 

[rcmodel]

Just my opinion, but for a revolver like the Python, I don't like to batter it with maximum charges.

I agree.

If you want to stretch the frame and try to knock it out of time with hot loads?
Buy a Ruger Blackhawk!
You can still get parts for one and even find people who know how to work on it.

A Python just ain't the gun to use for smoking hot loads anymore.

rc

 

[ranger335v]

Several decades ago, when I was a green reloading whipper-snapper, one of my peers asked our gun club guru how hot he could load for his rifle. The old dude looked him in the eye and said, "Add a half grain of powder to a series of loads and fire them one at a time, starting at the lowest. Keep shooting till it blows apart and then back off a full grain." That still seems about as good a way to answer such questions as I've heard.

For hand guns I just do what the manual I bought suggests, or a half grain less and accept what I get. So far, so good.

 

[gamestalker]

Try those 125 XTPs with W296 or H110 and use a magnum primer and you'll get amazing performance with that combo. Load the 125s with a starting load of 20.0 grains of W296 or H110 and follow the data up until your satisfied. This is a full house magnum combo.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Try those 125 XTPs with W296 or H110 and use a magnum primer and you'll get amazing performance with that combo. Load the 125s with a starting load of 20.0 grains of W296 or H110 and follow the data up until your satisfied. This is a full house magnum combo.

Hodgdon is listing an extremely narrow powder charge range for a 125gr XTP and W296/H110. They are listing only a ONE GRAIN range from 21.0gr to 22.0gr. I know other sources have a wider range but even Lyman 49 lists the same 21.0gr and 22.0gr min/max powder charges. They didn't copy the data because their velocity and pressure numbers are different than Hodgdon's numbers.

 

[jeepmor]

If that load wasn't too hot, which apparently it's not, I'd just keep shooting and call it good. I rarely get the best accuracy at max loads anyway. They always seem to be a 0.5 to 1.0 grains lower across the board for most powders I've tried, namely Alliant in pistol cartridges.

I would respect that Python though and maybe just make that my woods carry load though if it is a bit brutish. You be the judge, was recoil abusive?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Eh, shoot your Python and enjoy it unless it's some sort of safe queen. If it gets outta time, send it to Colt for a tune up. They work on them everyday. If it gets worn out, then replace it. Lifes too short to not enjoy the finer things when you can.

 

[civilian75]

Clarification: I am shooting a SW686, not a Python. Now I am intrigued. Are you guys suggesting Hornday held back on their charges when developing data in consideration to a lesser firearm!?!

Anyways, H110 will be next. I got some a couple of months ago for a 180grHP/XTP load I am developing for my 20" bbl 1894CB357. To my surprise, 2400 still gave me better performance, 2 MOA @ 100yd with highest mvs, with a full house load and with peeps! I had to dial H110 one gr under max (~150fps slower than 2400) to get same accuracy.

I do not have high hopes, though. Hornady data shows the highest H110/W296 mvs, but for a 8" bbl. Both Speer and Sierra show slower than 2400 for 6" bbl. Hodgdon lists 1966fps with 22gr of H110! I doubt thats with a Sw686. That's gotta be on something like Contender pistol. I figured 2400 is a faster burning that should yield higher mvs on shorter bbls than H110/W296. But I guess I won't know for sure until I try it. I needed to clear up this issue first.

Thanks to all.

 

[murf]

try bluedot with the 125gn xtp. fast and accurate in my model 28.

murf

 

[civilian75]

try bluedot with the 125gn xtp. fast and accurate in my model 28.

murf

Hmmm! How fast? How accurate? What bbl lenz?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Yeah, and read all the warnings Alliant has put out about using Blue Dot with 125 grainers. They went to great lengths to spread the word........Personally, I don't buy the alledged problems. I have been using Blue Dot with 125 gr JHP's for 20 years and still have all my fingers. I've been loading 14.0 grains all that time....My Speer #11 shows the load range from 14.3 to 16.3. My Speer #14 shows the range from 11.5 to 13.0.

 

[murf]

can't tell ya how fast. it's a 6"bbl. 3" groups offhand at 25 yards with a cylinder full. try it. your wheel gun might like it. non-magnum primers, too.

murf

 

[psyshack]

I shoot 2400, h110 and even old school herco .357 loads in my 686+ 4" with no issues.