How I removed the magazine safety disconnect on my Browning HiPower

[W.E.G.]

How I removed the magazine safety disconnect on my Browning HiPower

I don’t think I can do much better to articulate the basics of HiPower disassembly than the write-up by televiper at http://230grain.com/showthread.php?1521
Please read his tutorial.
What televiper does not adequately cover though is the issue of the ungodly-stubborn trigger axis pin. That is what THIS thread is about.

I’ll cut straight to the chase.

You need to remove the TRIGGER from the frame in order to get the magazine safety out. The axis-pin for the trigger can be a BEAST to remove if you don’t have a plan.

I didn’t really have one, but I hope the lesson I learned will serve to help others.

You need ONE SPECIAL TOOL to save you all manner of frustration with this task.

You need an AUTOMATIC CENTER PUNCH.
It’s a center-punch and a spring-loaded hammer all in one tool.
One of these:




I got mine from http://littlemachineshop.com/
In particular: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2620&category=
“Starrett Automatic Center Punch with adjustable stroke”
I run mine on FULL STROKE most of the time.

How it works:
“This punch has a lightweight, knurled aluminum handle for a positive grip and easy handling. No hammer is required! Just hold the punch in an upright position, press the handle down, and a built-in mechanism strikes a perfect center mark every time. The force of the blow can be adjusted by turning the knurled cap.”

The best $30.50 you could ever spend when fighting HiPower trigger pins.
Two or three “clicks” from this tool will have that trigger pin moving without any fuss.
Yes, it will put a small divot in the center of the pin. Compare that to the damage to the frame that is inevitable if you try other methods, and don’t really know what you are doing (witness myself).

I originally got my automatic center punch for center-punching rivets so I could drill them out while disassembling AK-47 kits. You will find all manner of uses for an automatic center punch once you have one in your tool kit. I found a new use today.

I first tried a brass punch and a gunsmithing hammer.
tap-tap-tap-tap… Nothing
tap-tap-tap-tap- tap-tap-tap-tap… still nothing
Tap-Tap-Tap-Tap-Tap-Tap Tap-Tap-Tap… STILL nothing
TAP-TAP-TAP- TAP-TAP-TAP- TAP-TAP-TAP… BOO-YAHHHHH!!!

The tip of the punch fractured and the punch skipped across the face of the frame, leaving a nasty tattoo.




You see, this what will happen if you just wing it.

Figuring I had nothing more to lose now, I got out the steel punch and my biggest claw hammer.
WHANG-WHANG-WHANG-WHANG-WHANG-WHANG!… STILL NOTHING.
Well, except for another scratch on the frame and a mushroomed end of the trigger pin.

At this point I’m getting pretty annoyed, and I email my buddy 12-ton, and discuss mashing this thing in the Wilton vise, or the hydraulic press.

Taking a time out, it dawns on me that none of these pin-punches are getting any kind of good engagement on the trigger pin. So, why not CENTER-PUNCH the trigger pin so I can get the point of a 10-penny nail lined up on the pin? How to do it?... the Starrett automatic center punch!




I carefully placed the tip of the automatic punch on the center of the trigger pin.
Snap-snap-snap… HEY!!!!!!! The trigger pin is MOVING!
HOW ABOUT THAT.
Now, why didn’t I think of this BEFORE I scratched the frame of the gun.
Oh well, live and learn.

Once I got the pin moved just a short way, I was able to use the regular steel punch to drive the pin out the rest of the way with minimal effort. The only damage to the pin was the pin-prick mark on the right end of the pin.





I hadn’t completely learned my lesson when I re-installed the pin.
I used the “gunsmith hammer” to try to drive the pin back into place.
Everything was fine until the last eighth of an inch. Then the pin stalled, and the hammer slipped, and I got ANOTHER new scratch on the other side of the frame.
At this point, I got out the automatic center punch again and drove the pin the rest of the way in without any fuss, except for the small pin-prick mark on the left end of the pin.

If I had just used the automatic center punch throughout, I could have avoided any scratching of the frame of the pistol. This is the lesson I hope I can share with you, and that you will use to not scratch your own guns.

By the way, it’s a cinch to get the trigger and the magazine disconnect assembly out of the gun once the trigger axis pin is removed. There is a SECOND PIN in the rear portion of the trigger that retains magazine disconnect assembly. You can drive that pin out before or after you get the trigger out of the gun. I was able to easily remove that second pin without the use of a giant hammer or the automatic center punch.

Whose idea was it anyway to design a trigger so that you’ve got this big “foot” grinding against the front side of the magazine every time you pull the trigger?








The mark on the front of the mag is from that blasted disconnect gizmo dragging against the front of the mag every time the trigger is pulled. THAT is why the Browning HiPower trigger pull is TOTAL CRAP in its original configuration.



Here are the tools I used:
Basement floor covered with 70’s-era linoleum. Yes, I just laid on the floor and did it.
Two blocks of scrap wood. Lord knows how many “gunsmith” projects these bits of wood have been involved in.
The holy Starrett automatic center punch. You need one badly.
Eyeglasses – because I can’t see squat up close without glasses.
Why the earmuffs? Because before I figured out I could use the automatic center punch, I was lying on the floor with my face right next to the trigger guard, and trying to hold the gun, and the punch, and the blocks of wood, while swinging the hammer(s) next to my ear on the floor of the laundry room with the sound of the hammer-blows reverberating in my cranium like a hollow barrel.
Screwdrivers, punches, and pliers.




Its all good I reckon.

 

[Jim K]

Too bad you didn't know the trigger pin is held in by the trigger spring. All you have to do is pull up the spring and the trigger pin pushes out easily.

Driving out the pin can ruin both the pin and the spring.

Jim

 

[gunplumber]

Glad that wasn't a clients pistol. Tats are kinda frowned upon........

 

[W.E.G.]

I seriously question the idea that the little spring that engages the little groove on the trigger pin could provide the degree of resistance I encountered. Similar spring/groove arrangements exist in AR-15's, and I've never encountered any resistance getting AR-15 trigger pins out such as I encountered in this project.

Some folks are reporting to me that they have been able to get the disconnect out by just knocking out this pin and "jiggling" the thingy that rubs against the magazine.

 

[Jim K]

As you wish, but forgive me if I provide info for folks who might not want to use a center punch to expand the trigger pin and tighten it up even more.

Jim

 

[Mac's Precision]

Uhm....

Two things for you to think about.

1) if you are mauling a pin to remove it...you are doing something wrong

2) the largest steel hammer on my workbench is a 4 oz., the largest brass hammer is an 8 oz.


The use of a 20+ ounce framing hammer is a tool that should never be discussed in gunsmithing. While the trigger axis pin might need a little help coming out it normally will be just a nudge with a brass punch once the spring leg is removed from the retaining groove.

I am glad you accomplished your task but I assure you that center punching a pin will only serve to swell the end and make it harder to remove as well as leaving unsightly tracks that are undesirable. I would seek a new pin from Gun Parts and get the punch marks off your gun.

A spring leg can certainly retain a pin well enough to resist removal. If the spring leg is in the groove deep enough you would have to shear the spring wire or ruin the pin. If the groove is square cut as opposed to v-shaped it can retain the spring wire very well. The depth and style of groove dictates how readily the wire will pop out as the pin travels in its hole. If the wire is .030 in diameter and the groove is .025 deep the center of the wire diameter is below the surface if the pin and thus locked in the groove such that it won't encounter the radius of the wire. Your hammer blows encounter a solid block and the pin won't move. In larger applications where the wire might be larger and the groove is full wire depth it is a more positive lock that won't give till the shoulder of the pin groove is compromised and shoves the wire out. In that case the burr created will destroy the frame hole on the way out.

IF the wire was .030 and the groove is .015 (or less) deep the pin will encounter the radius below the center line of the wire and cam the wire out as the pin moves. One should not bet on the wire being cammed out but rather lift the wire out of the pin groove when working on this type of retention method. Shearing conditions such as this may harm the pin and weaken the wire as a small bite is taken from the wire as it lifts out.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Mac.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Some folks are reporting to me that they have been able to get the disconnect out by just knocking out this pin and "jiggling" the thingy that rubs against the magazine.

On early Hi Powers, you can indeed do it that way. At some point (not sure exactly when) some minor change was made to the frame that precludes doing it the easy way.

I haven't had anything like the problems you describe in removing that pin. They can be tough, especially with the enamel coated versions which basically cement the pin in place, but nothing like you are describing. It might be something as simple as not having a firm surface under the firearm when you struck the pin.

Buy a roll of rubberized electrical tape to prevent marring the head of the pin or surrounding frame. Use it.

Also, don't be afraid to knock the pin out from the other side if you have problems from right to left. The pin is not tapered and sometimes (for whatever reason), it's easier to knock it out from the flat (left) side of the pin.

 

[AZ_Rebel]

Hmmmm.... $200. damage to a Hi-Power to save $25.00 for a GUNSMITH to do it properly... doesn't add up to me.
We disassemble 5 or 6 Hi-Powers a month and while some of the trigger pins are tight, a cup end punch and hammer are all we ever use. If real tight, we let it sit with Kroil overnight and whip it out in the morning.
As mentioned above, having the frame solid so the energy of the hammer is directed on the pin is the real key. Snugged in a leather padded vise and a with a careful positioning of the cup of the punch.... they almost always start on the first tap - with no damage to the pin or the frame.
Suggest the OP ditch the center punch and learn to do it properly. Advise that at the very least damages the pin (and possibly more) is not helpful.
While the trigger return spring leg rests in a groove on the pin it is not necessary to lift the spring.
AND... Never drive the pin out from left to right. It will never fit right again.

 

[gyvel]

And all of the marks can be avoided altogether if you use an aluminum bar or punch to get the pin moving. Aluminum will leave a silver colored stain on the metal that washes off with a little bore solvent.

 

[danite]

cut a piece of 3/4 pipe tape it up leaving hole open,very handy for the disco.pin no lateral stress on trigger when tapping pin out i have several cut at at different lengths for placing under guns of different types for punching out pins works great ,doesn't mar the gun either also some pieces of aluminium stock notched and drilled in different size holes and notches,works good for punching pins and some re-assembly also ,can set up-rights in them,(like a unused punch,dowels cut to size,etc) like creating a jig to hold subject piece in place while assembling it,a little imagination and you can secure the frame without damaging it,when a vice is less than advantages

 

[Acera]

Bumping a five year old thread??? Really?




.

 

[a5werkes]

Too bad you didn't know the trigger pin is held in by the trigger spring. All you have to do is pull up the spring and the trigger pin pushes out easily.

Driving out the pin can ruin both the pin and the spring.

Jim

^ What he said !
There's always a trick. I have my own list to remind myself when the task at hand just doesn't seem like it's going like it should:

Gunsmithing Tricks and Truism’s


1. Some pins will only move one way (either trigger headed, splined, flattened on one side) but appear the same on both their exposed ends.


2. Some pins that appear to be screws on the outside are just slotted for the purpose of:

* Proper external orientation of the pin internally for assembly e.g. Sig P226 locking block, left side

* Turning a release cam inside e.g. 1911 magazine catch button

* Act as a open-ended spring for retention e.g. Desert Eagle magazine catch button


3. A special tool is often needed and not disclosed in advance.


4. There is always a trick to make a daunting task seem easy.


5. Small parts and springs will tend to get lost – don’t forget the clear baggy trick.


6. You can never have a hard enough pin punch.


7. Penetrating oil is your friend; Patience your best friend.


8. Proper size, i.e. the correct fitting of screw slot with a gunsmith (hollow ground style) screwdriver

or screw jack is a must.


9. Some parts look like they could go together in any order without making a difference….wrong.


10. Some parts can be installed completely backwards and still have the parts fit….but not work properly.


11. Never take apart a gun for the first time without a digital camera.


12. Removing pins, screws, threaded parts and wood pieces without ruining them, is 90 % of the game.


13. Some parts were never designed to be separated ….sometimes you just don’t know which ones.


14. You can never protect blued and varnished surfaces enough….tape protect non-work areas.


15. The manual you need in order to save yourself from misery is never available.


16. The hardened screw that breaks off in the hole was the last one that had to be removed.


17. If the parts don’t feel like they are not working together properly, they are not.


18. The wrong tool you thought would work usually scratches or buggers up the part.


19. An asymmetric spring without labeled ends can be a mystery.


20. The tell tale signs that you disassembled the gun never occur on the inside.


21. The external appearance of a slotted screw gives no hint as to whether its right / left hand threaded.


22. Strike “like-with-like”; brass punch Þ use brass hammer, steel punch Þ use steel hammer.


23. If parts need to be modified or fitted, always work on the least expensive part first or the part that is most readily available or replaceable.

 

[HOWARD J]

What do you gain by removing the disconnect .
I have my P35 with 1 1/2 # trigger kit
Mag disconnect does not bother me.
Just wondering?

 

[Sistema1927]

1.5 lb. trigger on a P35?

Wanting to know 1) how you made that happen, and 2) why?

 

[Ironicaintit]

What do you gain by removing the disconnect .
I have my P35 with 1 1/2 # trigger kit
Mag disconnect does not bother me.
Just wondering?

The mag drops free, and the trigger loses its grittiness. I'm not super picky about triggers, but it sure did improve with that dog removed, and the "released" mag remaining in the well always bugged me.

 

[HOWARD J]

1.5 lb. trigger on a P35?

Wanting to know 1) how you made that happen, and 2) why?

I like very accurate pretty nickel plated pistols .
Got something against that?

 

[Sistema1927]

No, I don't have anything against it, but I am still wondering how you got a 1.5 lb. trigger on a Hi-Power, especially with keeping the mag disconnect unmolested.

If this is a range only target gun, then I guess that 1.5 might possibly be OK, but I am scratching my head as to how one could accomplish what you claim. I know enough about the geometry of the Hi-Power fire control system to know that this is nigh on impossible. There are plenty of experienced smiths who would be hard pressed to give a 4 lb. trigger on a P-35.

(In other words, yes, I am calling BS on your claims. Post a video showing 10 consecutive pulls using a decent trigger pull gauge and I will become a believer.)

 

[Kendal Black]

Google can be of assistance on disassembly questions: https://www.google.com/webhp?source...F-8#safe=off&q=detail strip browning hi power

As for me, I regard the p35's magazine safety as a feature, not a bug. It heads off a certain kind of unloading accident. In that way it makes sense on a pistol intended for the troops, who are not always thoughtful gun handlers.

 

[HOWARD J]

No, I don't have anything against it, but I am still wondering how you got a 1.5 lb. trigger on a Hi-Power, especially with keeping the mag disconnect unmolested.

If this is a range only target gun, then I guess that 1.5 might possibly be OK, but I am scratching my head as to how one could accomplish what you claim. I know enough about the geometry of the Hi-Power fire control system to know that this is nigh on impossible. There are plenty of experienced smiths who would be hard pressed to give a 4 lb. trigger on a P-35.

(In other words, yes, I am calling BS on your claims. Post a video showing 10 consecutive pulls using a decent trigger pull gauge and I will become a believer.)

go find a company that sells spring kits for handguns '
I did this 30 some years ago.
If I used that BS remark I would be kicked off of here but guys in their parents basement can say it with no problem

 

[Sistema1927]

Been using Hi-Powers for 40 years, and I still contend that if you have one with a 1.5 lb. trigger pull and an intact mag disconnect it must be the only one in the universe.

Even with a C&S kit, and the services of a decent smith, you can possibly get a 4.5 - 5.5 pull. I am guessing that one wouldn't be able to slam the slide shut on one with a 1.5 lb. pull without tripping the sear.

(And I kicked my son out of the house about 15 years ago.)

 

[HOWARD J]

Been using Hi-Powers for 40 years, and I still contend that if you have one with a 1.5 lb. trigger pull and an intact mag disconnect it must be the only one in the universe.

Even with a C&S kit, and the services of a decent smith, you can possibly get a 4.5 - 5.5 pull. I am guessing that one wouldn't be able to slam the slide shut on one with a 1.5 lb. pull without tripping the sear.

(And I kicked my son out of the house about 15 years ago.)

Next time I am in gun shop I will have it tested
Found papers from 1982
I replaced
recoil spring
Main spring
trigger spring
& firing pin spring
I never really knew the pull but it was reduced 45%
will advise --If I can make it to the gun shop
Purchased my first gun in 1951

 

[Sistema1927]

If you reduced it by 45% then you are probably somewhere between 3.5 - 5.5 since they come from the factory anywhere from 8 -10.

A Hi-Power will never have a 1911 trigger. The trigger geometry on the Hi-Power will not allow it.

 

[HOWARD J]

I will make your day
just over 3 #'s trigger pull
Good thing I never needed this serious info to keep my construction material supply business running for 46 years.
Now I go watch Michigan crush Michigan State