How many of you have shot "the test"?

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1KPerDay said:
Supercool. Can you tell us how you arrived at that method for reloading over all the other options?
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The big thing that drove my reload style was keeping my right hand in a proper position/grip on the revolver. When I first started shooting revolver I tried the various versions where you transfer the revolver to the left hand for a strong hand reload and could never reliably get my right hand back on the grip the way I needed quickly and a poor re-grip effected my post reload accuracy. I run a speed-loader fed revolver in a very similar manner also.
 
Yeah I figured that was the main advantage. Also looks like you will never get called on a vertical 180 by a zealous SO.
 
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cheygriz said:
The problem I have with all of these "drills" is that in real life situations, you live or die by the first one or two shots.
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I have always viewed all the gun handling drills as a way to make the gun shooting and handling aspects so practiced that they are second nature and require little conscious concentration to execute. The less I have to think about my gun and all the minutia of draw, shoot, reload, malfunction clear, etc; the more conscience brain power I have to use in making wise tactical decisions to get out of the bad situation alive whether that involves the use of my firearm or not.

It also applies in a very similar way to competitive shooting. The more I can make the gun handling skills second nature the more brain power I have to dedicate to executing my plan on that particular stage correctly and efficiently and deal with any contingencies (missed target, malfunction etc) that may arise in the coarse of the stage. This make it easier to use the noble round gun to embarrass the filthy bottom feeders at the USPSA or IDPA matches. :p
 
mcb said:
I have always viewed all the gun handling drills as a way to make the gun shooting and handling aspects so practiced that they are second nature and require little conscious concentration to execute. The less I have to think about my gun and all the minutia of draw, shoot, reload, malfunction clear, etc; the more conscience brain power I have to use in making wise tactical decisions to get out of the bad situation alive whether that involves the use of my firearm or not.

It also applies in a very similar way to competitive shooting. The more I can make the gun handling skills second nature the more brain power I have to dedicate to executing my plan on that particular stage correctly and efficiently and deal with any contingencies (missed target, malfunction etc) that may arise in the coarse of the stage. This make it easier to use the noble round gun to embarrass the filthy bottom feeders at the USPSA or IDPA matches. :p
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Agreed. I view the varying drills as an interesting way to hone basic skills of drawing, target acquisition, proper shooting technique and recoil management. All things that will/would be needed should I ever have to use my gun in self defense, strengthening muscle memory.

Adding rules, parameters and time constraints help, IMO.
 
You make some valid points about gun handling. Still, I consider "drills" more a part of "gamesmanship" rather than serious training.

I prefer situation where no two shooters get the same targets, the same distance, or the same situation.

My background is LE training, not IDPA or USPSA
 
cheygriz said:
You make some valid points about gun handling. Still, I consider "drills" more a part of "gamesmanship" rather than serious training.

I prefer situation where no two shooters get the same targets, the same distance, or the same situation.

My background is LE training, not IDPA or USPSA
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They're all a game until you're in the soup.

Most of us (hopefully) will never know what that's like.

Drills of any kind are all we can do to prepare. Personally I think it wise to keep a fairly wide spectrum of drills in practice.
 
Games like IDPA and USPSA are probably the closest most of us are going to get to some real world pressure while firing live ammo. I am not claiming it's training for a gun fight, it not, it's a game (a rather enjoyable game). If your serious about real world use of your firearms you should also take classes focused on real world use of a firearm whether as a office (if that is your job) or for self-defense if your a civilian, but practical shooting sports can be a big part of a comprehensive training plan. Developing the skills to get even moderately competitive in a practical pistol sport will put your gun handling skill well beyond and far more well rounded than an overwhelming majority of shooters out there. Combine the competition developed proficiency with a bit of real world self-defense training and you will be well prepared for most situation. Assuming you have the demeanor to keep your head screwed on straight when things get pear shaped.

Example: At my local club back when I live in Ohio a couple of relatively green police officers from my home town started coming to our monthly USPSA matches. Their armorer said he would give them free training ammo from the department to shoot our matches with as he saw it as profitable trigger time. They were (by the rules) allowed to run their duty gear as-is. They were very safe shooters, slow and deliberate as their training no doubt had taught them, not competitive at all, but no doubt, as trained. The thing that jumped out at me was how bad their gun handling was at first. The idea of topping off the gun at the start of the stage so they had a full mag +1 took some awkward juggling. Their draw was slow and had lots of extra unneeded motion. Reloads where a three armed affair. The really shocking incident was the first time I saw one of them have a malfunction. I was the RO standing right behind him. His gun stove-piped and he stopped, look at the gun, and then looked back at me with a look, like now what do I do. I point at his gun and said, "Fix it and keep shooting!". That took way longer than it should have. But over that summer of matches it was nice to see how much those officers gun handling improved. After a few matches you could see how much more comfortable they where handling their handguns. Their actions with their handgun became as deliberate and smooth as the tactics they use to attack the stages.

If nothing else practical pistol matches get you trigger time, like nothing else. It tests the hardware and the meatware in ways few other activities can.

-Rambin'
 
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cheygriz said:
You make some valid points about gun handling. Still, I consider "drills" more a part of "gamesmanship" rather than serious training.

I prefer situation where no two shooters get the same targets, the same distance, or the same situation.

My background is LE training, not IDPA or USPSA
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Then how do you assess progress or lack there of???

I look at drills, especially those with a known standard/par kind of like the old business quote:

"That which is measured, improves"

They identify weak areas to work on. While I haven't done this particular drill yet, do do routinely run 5x5s (especially since IDPA made it a classifier), El Presidentes and Bill Drills. There's a lot to be said for "performance on demand" type tests to let you know where you're really at, VS where you think you are.

Case in point a couple years ago I took a class that convened over multiple range days spread out over a few weeks. The start of each live fire day consisted of each student; on the 7 yard line weapon loaded, holstered, no concealment, facing a standard paper plate. Each student would draw and fire 1 shot at the plate on a standard timer. The instructors recorded scores and tracked improvement as a way to see if students were doing their homework; dryfire drills etc.

The stated "goal" was a hit in under 1.75 seconds, (not a particularly tough drill without concealment etc.). It was amazing how many couldn't do it, whether it was a miss or failed time. These were guys that for the most part were decent shots, but either the time standard or the increased stress from having an audience had an effect. Many either had not shot on a timer or in front of an audience, almost none except for the match guys had done any type of performance on demand shooting.
 
To each his own, I guess. I set up practice sessions so no one had any idea what was coming. How many rounds, how many targets, shoot/no shoot targets. Dummy rounds in the magazine. The shooter never knew if there were no dummies, or 4-5. Sometimes clipboard in weak hand, pen in strong hand to start. Sometimes come to the line and don't fire at all.

To me, the important element is surprise. and since most shootouts occur at less than 7 yards, keeping all shots on a pie plate at 25 is pretty much meaningless. You don't want to train to be aiming while your adversary is shooting.

I can understand the "fun" part of the shooting games, but I don't think they should be considered life/death training. That's as much mental as it is physical.
 
cheygriz said:
To each his own, I guess. I set up practice sessions so no one had any idea what was coming. How many rounds, how many targets, shoot/no shoot targets. Dummy rounds in the magazine. The shooter never knew if there were no dummies, or 4-5. Sometimes clipboard in weak hand, pen in strong hand to start. Sometimes come to the line and don't fire at all.

To me, the important element is surprise. and since most shootouts occur at less than 7 yards, keeping all shots on a pie plate at 25 is pretty much meaningless. You don't want to train to be aiming while your adversary is shooting.

I can understand the "fun" part of the shooting games, but I don't think they should be considered life/death training. That's as much mental as it is physical.
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I am working under the assumption that you have not competed in a IDPA, USPSA or similar competition. Nearly all of the skills you list above are tested at those matches. And I agree USPSA, IDPA or similar is not life or death training. That said those sports do result in gun handling training at is finest.

Though the thread started as a discussion of a particular drill. IDPA and USPSA have only a small set of fixed "drill" (we call them classifiers) stages. These are standard stages that always get setup and run the same way and are used for classification, for ranking, competitors at large state, area, national matches. Despite these classifiers the overwhelming number of stages at matches are unique to the match. They are made up by the staff running the match and you are unlikely to have ever seen it before and it likely won't be reused. At a typical club level match you will unusually see 4-6 stages and only one of those will be a standard classifier stage.

I have shot stages with as few a 1 rd fired to as many as 60rds. Though technically IDPA limits stage round counts to 18 and USPSA to 32, both sports allow some rule bending at club level matches.

We have stages that starts with props in the hand or props that must be moved as part of the stage. We do unloaded starts, table starts, etc. I have had surprise stages at IDPA matches where you don't get a preview of the stage. Other stages where targets have some unique identifier and you don't know which targets you will engage until after the start buzzer. ie a stage had some targets with bandannas and some targets with hats. On the start signal you flipped over a randomly selected card that indicated which you were to engage. We have moving target, disappearing targets, target that pop-up and then disappear, and we have the dreaded Texas-star:eek:. :D I have shot matches with dark stages where you did it all with a flashlight.

We have stages with targets at ranges from contact to 50 yards although the overwhelming majority are probably between 5-15 yards. IDPA has very specific rules to the distribution of target ranges in a match. You quickly learn that at close range you simple putting the slide in the middle of the target and slapping the trigger and as ranges move out you transition to front sight, to full sight picture, to a fine full sight picture, and trigger control goes from slapping to sweeping to squeezing. We have stages that required the use of, or the transition to, strong hand only or weak hand only shooting.

The sports force competitor to shoot in awkward positions and encourage shooting on the move.

Reloading is part of your score. ( A personal favorite aspect of the sport)

The only think we don't do is force malfunctions. But malfunctions are their only form of punishment as they kill your score and competitors that are competent learn to be good at clearing malfunctions. More importantly competitors have run their gear hard enough to have worked out all the bugs so that they don't malfunction very often. Nothing is more aggravating at a match then a gun that won't run. I don't mind loosing to a better shooter but I hate loosing due to crappy hardware. Competition will push you to fix or replace anything that does not run 100%

Again it is not replacement for self-defense/duty training. Those classes go way beyond draw, shoot, reload, malfunction clearing. But that said competitive shooting it is one of the best ways to acquire those gun handling skills and make them second nature so you can focus on all the other important parts of self-defense/duty and the gun handling is already second nature.

-more ramblin'
 
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