How many of you have shot "the test"?

[1KPerDay]

And passed with 100%?

Both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers apparently use this drill in some of their classes. 10 yards, 10 seconds, 10 rounds (or you can remove one second for each round fewer than 9 your handgun holds; I shot 9 rounds under 9 seconds out of my 1911 .45 for example) shot from low ready or (more advanced) from the holster, on a B-8 target. Goal is all shots in the black with under 10 seconds. Vickers and hackathorn use the scoring rings and you need a 90 to pass (out of 100; Larry says all shots have to be in the black). Or you can be really harsh and add 1 second down for each point down (that allows one shot in the 9 for a pass if you're fast enough).

Sounds easy. I just tried it for the first time with my Dan Wesson heritage. Couldn't clean it (100 points) in 4 attempts. Best I got was 1 in the 9 the rest in the 10/x. First 2 times I had 2 in the 9 the rest in the 10/x.

I cleaned it with my .22/45 but it took 3 tries.

 

[FL-NC]

I like Kyle Lamb's 1-5 drill. Only downside is it requires 15 rounds. With a handgun, I use the A zone of a IPSC target.

 

[1KPerDay]

I like Kyle Lamb's 1-5 drill. Only downside is it requires 15 rounds. With a handgun, I use the A zone of a IPSC target.

what time limit for you?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I feel pretty confident I could do that after a couple tries with my Canik, but not with any other pistols I have.

What would be really impressive would be to do it cold bore.

 

[FL-NC]

what time limit for you?

You know, I really haven't been keeping track since I stopped competing (4 years ago). I always try to get all my hits in the A zone, and if I blew one I considered it a fail. You just inspired me to break out the pro-timer and see what I'm really doing. Some key points of the drill is that your grip and stance are very important, especially as you start firing the 4 and 5 shot strings- if you fudge it on the shorter ones you can "get away with it", but after 2-3 rounds it will start falling apart in a hurry. The second is that you need to remember to transition efficiently from target to target- almost like a robot- before you engage- otherwise you will engage before you have finished moving, and you will get flyers into the direction of movement. Its also a great close quarters drill with a rifle like an AR15- you will learn to get very aggressive with pulling that sucker in tight and proper stance there!

 

[JR24]

How big is the black in a B-8? 5 1/2"?

I think it'd be pretty doable as a have been practicing Ben Stoegers 6 dot drill (6 rounds in six seconds at 7 yards in a 2" circle, six times). I'm yet to pass it, but I have gotten 29/36 recently with my sig 226.

 

[alfsauve]

Yes the B-8 has a black area of ~5.5" and the B-6 has an 8" black area. The scoring ring sizes are the same. You can buy just the center part fairly cheaply in bulk.

 

[1KPerDay]

How big is the black in a B-8? 5 1/2"?

I think it'd be pretty doable as a have been practicing Ben Stoegers 6 dot drill (6 rounds in six seconds at 7 yards in a 2" circle, six times). I'm yet to pass it, but I have gotten 29/36 recently with my sig 226.

That sounds cool too. I assume you start holstered? That dude's a robot.

 

[1KPerDay]

I feel pretty confident I could do that after a couple tries with my Canik, but not with any other pistols I have.

What would be really impressive would be to do it cold bore.

Yeah. Technically I "passed" with a 98 cold bore, actually first time I ever shot the drill. But not 100%. Something to aim for, pun intended.

 

[cslinger]

I can shoot 10 rounds in under 10 seconds.

That kinda counts right.

MumblemumbleparticipationtrophyMumble.

Seriously though, I doubt I could do that to be honest, maybe with the guns that cover my ineptitude the best but even then it would likely be ......

I did mention I can shoot 10 rounds in under 10 seconds right.

 

[JR24]

That sounds cool too. I assume you start holstered? That dude's a robot.

Yep, also I mistyped, its 5 seconds for the 6 rounds, not six. I tend to get my first shot on target at about 1.7 seconds, so that still leaves over .5 / per which is doable. My average splits for a rapid fire, not so precise is about half that.

Still, 36 straight is really, really tough.

https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drill-the-dots/

 

[cslinger]

I have never shot myself......that counts right???

 

[JR24]

Thinking on it, a string of 10 is really though for this. 2 of 5 I think would be far easier.

 

[1KPerDay]

Yeah sounds like the test should be cake for you. It's a little different because the bull is all black and you have to find center with your sights. Contrast may be an issue.

 

[JR24]

Yeah sounds like the test should be cake for you. It's a little different because the bull is all black and you have to find center with your sights. Contrast may be an issue.

Indeed, I look forward to trying it, though I'll need to dredge up some b8 targets.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I usually shoot a J frame revolver in a 5-5-5 drill. From the holster 5 rounds inside a 5" circle from 5 yards in under 5 seconds. Not a super tight time limit but enough to cause a little stress along with the timer beep. I changed the drill by pushing out to 7 yards.

When you pass the drill that's only the start, then you shrink the circle by an inch and work on that drill again.

 

[cslinger]

Seriously though, I have seen lay people (non professional shooters or folks without the last name Michulak or Mundon) shoot amazingly well, almost robot like in speed and precision.

There was a women many years ago who came into shoot at a range I was at. I was there with a bunch of guys and we were all running our kit pretty damn well and had stopped to pat each other on our man backs. Grunt.

In walks this woman. BEAUTIFUL, 2 hearing aids. She proceeded to shoot a bit like the scene in Robocop where all the cops stop shooting and look. She was AMAZING. We all stopped the patting of backs cuz......well I CAN SHOOT 10 rounds in less the 10 sec....

Anyway come to find out she had been raped and swore it would never happen again. Well if this woman was anywhere near anything this side of a nail gun.......I promise she won’t be

I wish I had that kind of skill. I do not.

 

[JohnKSa]

Nice test. Very simple, but it tests a lot of skills. And it's easily modified to make it more challenging as your skill level improves.

When you can clean it regularly from the low ready, start from the draw.
When you can clean it regularly from the draw, switch to your compact/subcompact carry gun.
When you can clean it regularly from the draw with your carry gun, then start drawing from concealment.
You can also add movement--say a sidestep during the draw.
Have someone else load your mag with a dummy round in a random position to add a malfunction drill (add 1 second to the par time).
Or you could incorporate a reload (add 1.5 seconds to the par time)

 

[Drail]

That is a really good test. It makes you use everything you got and shows you what you need to work on. I may have to break out the old Pac timer and shoot this. I think I'm going to have to try it with a wheelgun, too. Thanks for this post.

 

[fastbolt]

Nice reminder of an old drill.

We once used a "watered down" version of this in the early 2000's, including it as one of the scored drills in a qual session. We needed to add to the rounds/fired count for that qual period, and thought it might be an interesting change of pace for the regular staff (from always shooting at various silhouettes and pepper poppers).

The drill was started with the shooter reacting from a low-ready position, facing a standard 25yd bullseye at 10yds, and all hits in the black counted the same. Hits outside the black were misses. It's been too long to remember all the details, but I think after some discussion we ended up allowing a very generous 15 seconds for the 10 shots (after more than a little debate among the FTU staff arguing for a shorter time limit ). Well, when you're talking about the huge variety of "average" shooter skills found among a few hundred regular cops, you have to take into account the folks who aren't exactly shooting enthusiasts.

The scoring was kept at the standard minimum 70% pass as the rest of the course-of-fire. Back in those days we (FTU staff instructors) often arrived at the time limits for various drills and scenarios by taking the averaged times of what the training staff could do, without any misses, and then allowing twice the time for the regular shooters to perform the same thing (but allowing for misses that would still reach a 70% pass).

It reminded some shooters of the importance of aiming.

It also reminded me of how the younger, newer LE shooters hadn't learned their handgun skills using revolvers, and hadn't been around for the days when a scored course-of-fire might put targets no closer than 15yds, and run out to 50yds.

 

[mcb]

I have not done this particular drill but I am pretty sure I could with a full size revolver still firing all 10-shots. I have done the USPSA classifier El Pres. in well under 10 seconds with a revolver.

That El Pres classifier is run, on the start signal (you start facing up-range with wrists above respective shoulders, gun loaded and holstered), turn, draw, fire 6-shots (double taps on three USPSA metric targets at 10 yards), reload and fire another 6-shots (double taps on same three targets at 10 yards). The last time I shot it I had roughly a 6.7 Hit-Factor, assuming I hit all Alpha's I would have done that it just under 9 seconds, knowing myself I probably dropped two or three Charlies with a Minor gun so probably closer to 8-seconds for 12 shots with a reload.

 

[fastbolt]

I usually shoot a J frame revolver in a 5-5-5 drill. From the holster 5 rounds inside a 5" circle from 5 yards in under 5 seconds. Not a super tight time limit but enough to cause a little stress along with the timer beep. I changed the drill by pushing out to 7 yards.

When you pass the drill that's only the start, then you shrink the circle by an inch and work on that drill again.

Yep. Nice. Slow and steady improvement, keeping it a reasonably achievable goal.

When I was reawakening my own interest in 5-shot snubs many years ago (and an excuse to start adding more Airweights, and a bit later the then-new M&P 340's ), I looked at the 5x5x5x5 drill more or less as a starting point for further development, meaning demonstrating a minimum acceptable level of competency when fired "cold". I started off using low recoil standard pressure 158gr LSWC or RNL, and 130gr ball, depending what was available. Then I began adding various +P carry loads to the standard pressure loads, as a "mix", and finally just used +P loads.

Once it was consistently achievable 2-handed at 5yds, then I moved it a bit closer (3-4yds) for 1-handed shooting, from a hip-low/center indexed position. Then I started decreasing the time, as well as continually tightening up the groups with the faster times, at both distances.

My goal was basically being able to consistently run the 2-handed version of the drill firing 5 shots @ 5yds within 2-3 secs, maintaining no larger than a 3-4" cluster of hits, and doing it 1-handed at 3-4yds, within 2 secs. (I varied the 1-handed shooting by a yard, to make sure I could adapt to minor close range distance changes and still accurately index the non-sighted fire on the target.)

Once these goals were something I was able to consistently do, cold, on any range day or night ... then the trick was to work maintain it. Harder trick.

The guy who presently runs our FTU range staff is an old friend of mine, and another holdover from the revolver days (but 10 years younger than me). One afternoon he wandered downrange and saw me working with a younger instructor, who I was introducing to the basic 2-handed 5x5x5x5 test using one of my M&P 340's, loaded with an assortment of the usual +P loads I use for training and carry. My friend came over and asked if he could try the drill, offering that he'd not been making the time to get out his revolvers and would like to test himself. (Last I knew, the only J-frame he owned was an early 640, meaning no Airweights.)

I smiled and gave him the M&P 340, telling him it was loaded with some +P loads, knowing he enjoyed revolvers and wasn't sensitive to recoil. I gave him the signal to start the drill, watching him smoothly and rapidly function the DAO trigger and get a tight cluster of hits in barely under 2 secs. He smiled, pleased that he'd done decently well on a cold drill. I was glad for him and told him that I'd expected nothing less, knowing he was a holdover from the revolver days in LE. Like riding a bicycle, if you make a little effort to keep the rust off.

 

[1KPerDay]

I have not done this particular drill but I am pretty sure I could with a full size revolver still firing all 10-shots. I have done the USPSA classifier El Pres. in well under 10 seconds with a revolver.

That El Pres classifier is run, on the start signal (you start facing up-range with wrists above respective shoulders, gun loaded and holstered), turn, draw, fire 6-shots (double taps on three USPSA metric targets at 10 yards), reload and fire another 6-shots (double taps on same three targets at 10 yards). The last time I shot it I had roughly a 6.7 Hit-Factor, assuming I hit all Alpha's I would have done that it just under 9 seconds, knowing myself I probably dropped two or three Charlies with a Minor gun so probably closer to 8-seconds for 12 shots with a reload.

Cool. Post a vid!

 

[mcb]

Cool. Post a vid!

Surprisingly I actually have video from that match. I stopped recording my matches two or three years ago just to focus on the fun of shooting. The last time I shot El Pres was in 2014. Looking back at the video I realize that the score was achieve with my Major revolver (625/45ACP), at the time I was still shooting my Minor revolver (627/38SC) in Production at most club matches.



The video is of four stages shot at, what was at the time, my home club. I shot the match twice, once with the 625 and once with the 627. So eight stages in the video.

The two El Pres. stage attempts start at ~1:25

 

[Drail]

VERY NICELY DONE. Nice clean reloads. Revolvers rule.