how many rounds will a guy need?? urban combat...

[tasco 74]

Nope i don't plan going to bagdad lee........

URBAN COMBAT was only the best term i think of at the time.... i don't go to any bars at all and seldom drink alcohol.... my SD GUN would be a s&w model 27 and i live in such a small town that if someone broke in or attacked me i'd probably know their name..... it just seems like with all the high capacity 9mm autos 6 shots don't seem like much.... on the other hand they would be six shots of federal .357 magnum jsps..... i did decide to use a crown royal bag i picked up from a guy to put some extra reloads in just in case... (the ammo in the speed loaders are fed factory)...............

 

[Erik M]

My 92 has a 17 round mag +1. The first 6 are saftery slugs, the rest hydrashoks. Thats probably overkill to alot of people but I prefer to carry a gun that I know. Variety is the spice of life so I figured I would chage up my ammo a bit for the t-virus outbreak

 

[YammyMonkey]

Equally, if not more important, is how you're going to reach your reloads. Is everything set up to work in a perfect environment where you're shooting with your normal hand & able to do 2-handed reloads? Are any of your reloads available if you're shooting with your other hand because your primary arm was somehow disabled (shot)?

Using a SmartCarry I can access the gun & reload with either hand. Using my standard belt set up it's near impossible to reach across my body & get a solid grip on one of my spare mags. So I also carry a spare just behind my gun. If I have to do a strong hand only reload, it's easy & fast to release the mag, jam gun in holster, access reload, stuff mag in gun, rack slide on belt & get back to business. That brings my total available to 69 rounds. I certainly don't ever think I'll need to shoot anywhere near that amount, but there is no problem concealing & each item serves a specific purpose.

You could have 100 rounds in your pocket but if you can't access them they're useless.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Thoughts? OK. Here are some, now that we know we're not launching off on some kind of SHTF fantasy thing with this thread, and I'm not going to have to close it for that reason. Frankly I wasn't sure what the intent was- but the thread got the benefit of the doubt till it could be sorted out. Unfortunately too many people post here without bothering to read the rules in the sticky at the top of the main page...

So, on to some thoughts. All too often people look for hardware solutions to what are really software problems. 'Stuff' is an easy way out, it's fun to argue about, fun to shop for, fun to buy or scrounge, fun to play with. The thing is, getting good at using your 'stuff' is work pure and simple.

Yep, some folks are saying, here he goes again, rolling out that "training" drum and pounding on it. That's right. Here it comes...

I have yet to find any reliable substitute for DOING THE WORK to get good with whatever tools you use. And I don't mean "getting good" on the flat range by yourself or with a buddy or two, shooting stationary targets from stationary positions in the usual exercise in ballistic masturbation that passes for 'practice' with most shooters.

Let's look at a couple of course outlines for basic pistol classes, just as in introduction to the concept of 'work'. Please read these slowly and carefully, because there isn't one single throwaway word in either class description-

Tactical Handgun - Stage I

Designed to create reflexive gunhandling, competent marksmanship and tactical thinking, this course encompasses shooting from a ready position, the drawstroke and shooting from the holster, shooting from various tactical body positions, loading, unloading and reloading, malfunction clearances, shooting on the move, moving targets, dim light and flashlight shooting and weapon retention. A short course of instruction on the utilization of backup guns is included for those who have opted to carry 2 pistols.

Ammunition requirement is 500 rounds, and 50 rounds for a backup pistol if used.

--- http://www.yfainc.com/courses.html
=========================

Defensive Handgun Course

An increasing number of people are seeking to improve their defensive shooting skills and expand their knowledge about the use of firearms for personal protection. Over 28 states now issue concealed weapon permits to law abiding citizens and more are expected to revise their laws in 1996. DTI classes offer permit holders and those who are considering applying for a permit an opportunity to learn how to properly and safely carry a concealed handgun and to understand the laws regarding the use of lethal force for personal protection.

The DTI Defensive Handgun Course is designed to prepare the responsible, adult gun owner to handle, maintain, safely store, and use their firearm safely, responsibly, correctly, and effectively, so that they are able to successfully handle nearly any personal protection situation.

The course will consist of classroom lecture/demonstration and live-fire exercises on the range.

Classroom instruction includes:

situation awareness
threat evaluation
the force continuum
courtroom savvy
the latest information on the physio/psychological aspects of lethal encounters.
Live-fire exercises on the range include:

threat evaluation
risk identification and reduction
lethal threat containment and management
precision shooting
discretionary shooting
low-light shooting (with and without a flashlight)
cover and movement
performing under stress

Tactical training is conducted in a realistic manner, stressing correct use of cover, movement, challenges, and other important individual tactics. In addition, students will practice close and extremely close encounters and weapon control.

This two day course is usually offered on a weekend with a low light shooting session at the end of the first day.

--- http://www.defense-training.com/courses/handgun.html
============================

I used Louis Awerbuck and John Farnam as examples because my wife and I have trained with both of them, I know what they teach and how they teach it. ANY good instructor is going to teach the same sort of things in the same sorts of ways, and their students are going to learn some things they almost certainly would never learn on the flat range alone, or in shooting competition alone.

No, you don't HAVE to have training to defend yourself. But it helps! Any good trainer is going to 'ladder' the skills he or she teaches in the course of training, and in building up the performance demands placed on students over time, is going to build the stress and pressure they operate under as well. The better a shooter can operate under pressure, the better that shooter is likely to do in a critical situation.

A good trainer is going to ramp up your learning curve faster than anything else you can do to improve your skills, period. Having someone who teaches for a living looking over your shoulder and tweaking your stance, drawstroke, grip, trigger squueze, followthrough, reloads... it just gets you so much further ahead so much faster.

A good class is an excellent way of testing the physical functionality of gear as well the individual shooter's decisions on how to carry or use said gear. If there are any shortcomings in any aspect of firearms, holsters, ammunition, etc., a demanding class will expose them. And some full time instructors watch hundreds of thousands if not millions of rounds go downrange every year- who would you rather have advising you about what works and what doesn't, one of those people or the clerk at the gun store who probably shoots less than you do?

The main thing most people come out of a good class with is more confidence- confidence in their gear, and confidence in their own ability to use what they carry effectively. A good class answers a LOT of questions, many of which the student might not have even realized going in.

Questions like this one...

hth,

lpl

 

[renegade1alpha]

When someone asks me what the best concealed carry gun is I tell them, "The one you can hit with!" If you can put a magazine of .22 long rifle hollow points where they need to go but cant hit the broad side of a barn with a .45 ACP, carry the .22

 

[BCPerry]

Active Shooter

I suggest everyone take an active shooter class thats worth a flip and then answer the question, " How much Ammo?"

On duty I carry shot gun and about 80 rounds. My side arm is a G 22 15+1 rounds. Two extrs mags on the belt, third in the pocket, two more in the car, and about 100 rounds in the car.

Off duty, G-22 fully loaded, and 2 extras on my side, with 2 more in the car. You can never have too much ammo.

 

[armoredman]

Would love expensive training classes with the best. Unfortunately, paycheck says no, and no local trainers, so now what?

 

[bratch]

Would love expensive training classes with the best. Unfortunately, paycheck says no, and no local trainers, so now what?

Is there a group of competant shooters local that you know?

I've started shooting with a group of guys who run local classes and are training junkies. We are working on setting up an training group that goes out to the local gun club regularly to run drills. We've all been to various classes so we'll have different drills and experiences to work from as we plan our sessions.

If you could find a group who has done some training or are atleast good with their guns you could work on setting a group up about the only expense would be ammo and targets, maybe DVDs if you wanted some new ideas.

 

[Fred Fuller]

armoredman,

Where are you in AZ?

lpl

==============
-from my list, stickied at the top of the main S&T page:

Arizona

Chandler, AZ - Kent Turnipseed, Turnipseed Technique, Inc. - http://www.turnipseedstance.com/

Chino Valley, AZ - Bill Jeans, Morrigan Consulting - http://www.morr-con.com/schedule.html

Chino Valley, AZ - Pat Rogers, E.A.G. Tactical - http://www.eagtactical.com/courseschedule.asp

Chino Valley, AZ - Gabe Suarez, Suarez International - http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

Marana, AZ - Collier's Ex-Caliber Inc. - http://www.c-x-c.com/ (090725)

Maricopa, AZ - Alyssa Petersen, Arizona Personal Protection, LLC - http://arizonapersonalprotection.com/default.aspx (090628)

Mesa, AZ - Arizona Gunteacher - http://www.arizonagunteacher.com/index.html (090829)

Mesa, AZ - David White, Desert West Firearms Training, LLC - http://www.desertwestfirearmstraining.com (090918)

Mesa, AZ - Jim Neff, Generations Firearm Training - http://www.generationsfirearm.com/ (090829)

Paulden, AZ - Buz Mills, Gunsite Academy, Inc. - http://www.gunsite.net/

Phoenix, AZ - Rick Barkett, Arizona Defensive Firearms Training - http://www.azccw.com (090628)

Phoenix, AZ - Force Training Systems - http://www.forcetrainingsystems.com/ (090824)

Prescott, AZ - Louis Awerbuck, Yavapai Firearms Academy LTD - http://www.yfainc.com/schedule.html

Scottsdale, AZ - Doug Little, Armed Personal Defense Institute, - http://www.armedpersonaldefense.com/ (090725)

Show Low, AZ - Stephen P. Wenger, Defensive Use Of Firearms - http://www.spw-duf.info/

Sierra Vista, AZ - EXCEL Firearms Training Center - http://www.superquality.com/ (090822)
==========================
The NRA list at http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx has two pages of course listings for AZ, obviously you wouldn't be interested in some of them, but...
===========================
And ask around the local ranges, gun stores and gun clubs. There may be classes going on you just don't know about, or instructors working you aren't familiar with yet. I know there are a lot of isolated places in the US- we live in one of them. But there are still training opportunities available within a reasonable distance, even here in SE NC.

hth,

lpl

 

[Backpacker33]

How many rounds will you need?

I feel two things should influence how much ammo you carry.

First, you don’t really know how you’ll react if you have to shoot. It will likely happen very quickly, giving you little or no time to prepare. Fine motor skills disappear in an instant. Many a person has inadvertently fired their gun before they were ready because they reflexively squeezed the trigger as they drew or pointed the gun. I’ve seen people in matches, like IDPA, fire off several rounds from a semi-auto when they intended to fire just one, and the only stress was the clock. If your life is threatened, you may be sure your aim will likely suffer, too.

I think most of us would consider it prudent to be retreating ASAP before, during and after firing. If I had family with me, I’d definitely be hustling to get them to cover, and that might mean firing without precise aim. The results, from loss of fine motor control and the intent to stop or drive off attackers could be a rapid exhaustion of ammo in the gun. The ability to reload would be prudent.

How to reload becomes important.

In the movie Silence of the Lambs, Jodi Foster does an excellent portrayal of a reload under stress. Her character is a FBI agent in contemporary times, so we would presume the character benefited from current tactics and procedures. She has a revolver and is in the bad guy’s dark basement. She shot to empty and has to reload, one round at a time. She did not have a speed loader or speed strip. Ms. Foster accurately demonstrates the difficulty fear injects into an action that requires such deliberate control.

I think it was Jim Cirillo who popularized “The New York Reload,” a euphemism for having a second gun. He was by no means the first, there being many accounts of lawmen and bad guys in the U.S. Western frontier having up to four guns on them to avoid having to reload. We have many fine, small handguns that would serve for this.

I see many people on THR stating they carry or depend on a semi-auto. That means magazines. When I was on a town police force, we had an innovative captain who conducted our training. During one scenario I drew my Sig 228 and smoothly ejected the full magazine. My reload consisted of grabbing another from my belt and slamming it home while my fellow officers guffawed.

In a melee, it would also be easy to drop a weapon. In that case, only “The New York Reload” might be available. I have a relative in a state that allows carry, who has a lanyard on his gun. That would help, but can you see yourself reeling it toward you like a fishing line? Would your attackers pause to wait?

Speed loaders for revolvers seem like a must, but how do you carry them? I just don’t wear the clothes that would cover them. I once saw a plain-clothes cop with tell-tale bulges at his belt when he thought he was so under cover. *I* would look no more concealed. Like anything else, they can be dropped.

I am a fan of the speed strip. It fits in pockets or flat belt pouches. Two or more can easily be carried so if one is dropped there is another. They also help mitigate the loss of fine motor control so well depicted by Jodi Foster. The rounds are not loose and it is easier to hold the speed strip.

All that said, I know people who still keep a few loose rounds in their pockets, the theory being that if they lose everything else they can still get one round in the chamber of a semi-auto (that can be fired with magazine out), or into a cylinder.

In all cases my intent is to duck and cover and if at all possible get the flock out of there with haste. For that I feel I want one full reload of whatever I’m carrying, or a second gun.

 

[benEzra]

Would love expensive training classes with the best. Unfortunately, paycheck says no, and no local trainers, so now what?

This won't teach you everything, but you can learn a WHOLE lot about running a gun proficiently under stress by finding a local IPSC/USPSA or IDPA match and shooting in it; the first few matches, you don't generally have to be a member, and the fee is usually only $15-$20.

Maybe even observe the first one (free), look for someone shooting competently with a stock-looking firearm rather than a racegun, and ask for pointers. It is my observation that shooters in local matches are a friendly bunch and love to have new people in the sport.

If you do, resist the temptation to game the system, and just shoot your carry gun with your carry holster and mag holder. It will definitely reveal any flaws in your shooting technique, and it is vastly different from square-range practice.

 

[GEM]

Just a stat note - please take the course - if the average is said to be 3 to 4 rounds (if that is the real number), depending on distributional shape (if symmetrical), then half the time you will need more. Oops. However, we really don't have good, solid data of number of rounds broken down by incident type.

There seem to be two types of incidents. Single mugger or two property type crimes - low round count or the rare, high intensity gun fight - you luck into a rampage the mall - for instance.

In the latter, folks have run out of ammo.

Take away point - talking about the average is not very useful without clarification.

 

[eye5600]

Just a stat note - please take the course - if the average is said to be 3 to 4 rounds (if that is the real number), depending on distributional shape (if symmetrical), then half the time you will need more.

Betcha a nickle, it pretty close to a Poisson Distribution with a mean around two. Whether or not that's true, it's sure bet that the right tail is longer than the left, which is statistics-speak saying high values (e.g. 7 shots) may not be that rare, which is one reason you can always talk yourself into more ammo.

On the other hand, the Law of Diminishing Returns remains in effect, or every grandmother would go around with a semi-auto .308 battle rifle and 20 mags of ammo. On any particular day, the chances that you're going to fire a gun in an SD scenario may be 1 in 10000 (approx 1 in 25-30 years). In maybe 1 in 5 of those gunfights, you're going to want more than 5 rounds, so that's 1 in 50,000.

(For where I live, and how I live, the odds are probably even longer than these very rough estimates. For other places and situations, they may be low. YMMV.)

 

[browningguy]

I'm not sure how many rounds I might need, so I in the truck right now is a BHP in .40 with two spare mags, and a Bersa .380 with one spare mag. When I go on car trips I add the Sub 2000 in 9mm with 4 x 31 round mags in my briefcase. What could be worse than having my gun go to slide lock and no spare magazine.

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.

 

[Artiz]

statistics say 3-4 rounds during the average self-defense scenario. But most of the time not a single round is fired when the gun is brandished, IMO what boosts the statistics is that some people got in really bad self defense situations and litterally emptied their handgun. And we ALL know **** happens, it doesn't happen frequently, but it DOES happen and some guys had to fire all the ammo they had on them.

If I could carry, I would carry two spare mags. Probably a back-up handgun too. Too much doesn't exist.

 

[armoredman]

Lee, none of those are local, actually. I have Dept training, and some training from previoisly, but nothing local. Tried to talk to a group that was doing some IDPA style work last time I was at our free local range, was given a 32 degree cold shoulder. Oh well.

 

[ccsniper]

I plan on carrying (I am 20) a s&w sigma in .40 with 3 or 4 spare mags. Each mag holds 14 rounds. thats 42 to 56 rounds of ammo. I read a story about a cop shooting a BG with 22 rounds of .40 from a g22, 17 were COM. Now granted that was a cop and an extremely rare scenario but I just will feel better with several dozen rounds of ammo.

 

[EvanWilliams]

I recently sent my wife to one on one Pistol instruction. She learned alot and had fun gaining more skill with her SIG p239. She now disassembles it and re-assembles it in almost Apocalypse Now Fashion!!!
Money well spent.

 

[woodybrighton2]

lots and lots of range time.

did jobs in ulster with a browning and a spare mag
also same job mp5k two mags and browning and a spare mag.
known other people 10 spare mags