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How many rounds?

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Roadwild17

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Does anyone know of where to get stats or have any information on how many rounds one could expect to go through while "protecting" themselves? This could be anywhere from taking out a knife wielding GB to scaring away a small group of armed GB’s (some gangs around “operate” in packs of up to 8-9)
This is not an argument on caliber and I really don’t care what caliber was used.
 
You can't have too much ammunition

There are really too many variables to come up with a set amount. On duty I carry 3 spare magazines (21 rounds) +8 in the pistol, a 5 shot BUG with a bianchi speed strip in my pocket and 108 rounds for my AR. There is also a box of .45 in the squad car.

Off duty I carry 1 spare 7 round mag and the 5 shot BUG.

I think you have to consider the threat when establishing your load out. I don't think there is a one size fits all solution.

Jeff
 
We're not talking firefight here, Im looking at something small like a K9 and getting the 8 round mags +1 in the pipe and carying 2 spare mags (25 rounds) and Im wondering if that would handle the normal car jacking and stuff like that and things out in public. Come to my house uninivited and your options are between a RRA AR with a 90 rd drum or a Mossy 12.
 
I've never seen stats on it. I've heard it thrown around that the average gunfight is 3 rounds. Not sure about that one.
My compromise is that I always carry a spare mag. My CCW holds 10+1, spare holds 10. When I'm out away from 911 service, I carry another mag either on my or in my vehicle nearby. When camping I carry a 12 ga and about 20 rounds of slug and buck (planning on increasing that soon).
 
This could be anywhere from taking out a knife wielding GB to scaring away a small group of armed GB’s (some gangs around “operate” in packs of up to 8-9)
I'm not sure you want to get into the mindset of 'scaring away' any opponents. A firearm is deadly force and its purpose in a defensive situation is to stop or neutralize any threat(s) by way of incapacitating them with a bullet. The most effective way to accomplish this is to use a firearm of a sufficient caliber with which you have practiced extensively. That means you have the ability, under pressure, to draw and fire and accurately hit your target(s) in a place that will do the most damage, usually COM. Any decision to carry spare ammunition should be dependent on your own circumstances rather than on some statistics.
 
I think the average # of rounds expended in a gunfight is 2-3. The thing about averages is, you never know when you'll be in a situation that is not average. That # reflects gunfights where 1 shot was fired, as well as 10 shots...

My typical carry for CCW is 7+1 in my .45 and a spare 8 round mag, or 14+1 in my P-01 plus a spare 14-rounder. Roadwild, I don't think 2 spare mags for your K9 is overkill. Those single stack mags are easy to carry, so carrying 2 spares should be no problem. I would rather be in a situation where I found I didn't need the spare mag and brought it than vice versa.
 
I've heard three rounds in three seconds at three yards.

That said, I always have at least one spare mag on my person and one or two in the truck, and practice at distances more than three yards.
 
Quote from Roadwild17: Im looking at something small like a K9 and getting the 8 round mags +1 in the pipe and carying 2 spare mags (25 rounds) and Im wondering if that would handle the normal car jacking and stuff like that and things out in public.


How good are you with that K9 ?
What training have you taken ?
How often do you practice ?
How often do you practice shooting multiple targets ?
How often do you practice shooting from, or around, a vehicle ?
 
Few fights go beyond lockback or an empty cylinder. This is due, in part, because most bad guys don't carry spare mags and don't carry spare guns. Additionally, most don't want to engage you in a fight. They might want to shoot you, but they don't want to exchange shots with you.

I always carry a minimum of one spare mag per gun, two or three is better, however. I usually have a couple of spares in the console of the car as having them there does nothing to hinder me, so why not have spares?
 
One of the reasons to carry a spare magazine is because some malfunctions are magazine related and require another magazine to fix.

I stopped carrying my spare magazine because I found I preferred to have my Leatherman on my belt instead. I'd have both, but I need to avoid any appearance of mall-ninja-ness, so less stuff on my belt is better.
 
I thought the stats also showed firearms were used 2 million times per
year for self-defense without a shot even being fired? Zero. The mere
sight alone of an armed citizen was a deterrent. However, if a shot is
needed for "gun fight", hopefully you'll need no more than 1. ;)
 
John Farnam

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enough Ammunition?

20 December 2000

SOP-9, as it is called, is NYPD's ongoing statistical study of lethal-force incidents in which MOSs (Members of Service) are involved. It dates from the 1860s to the present and is a credible source of information, one of the few available.

For years, we were all told SOP-9 established the "average" number of rounds fired by an MOS during a lethal encounter was two to three. We later learned that figure was incorrect and was actually the result of sloppy statistical analysis. Naive statisticians simply took the total of all rounds fired outside of the firing range and divided it by the total number of shooting "incidents." Unhappily, "incidents" included accidents and suicides!

A more careful analysis of the data (which included only intentional shootings) revealed the actual figure to be very close to six rounds. What that said to us all was that officers, when threatened with lethal violence, were firing every round they had in their six-shot revolvers. After six shots, there was a mandatory pause for a conventional reload or a "NY reload," which consisted of producing a second revolver! After the reload, additional shooting was rarely necessary.

That was prior to 1994. In 1994 autoloading pistols were introduced to the NYPD system.

When autoloaders (mostly Glocks, with an occasional S&W and Beretta) came into the NYPD system, we all expected that figure (six) to go up into the teens, fully expecting officers to continue to fire every round they have. The latest data has shown our expectations to be incorrect!

The new "average" number of rounds fired is eight. Subsequent data may alter that number, but that is what we have now. What jumps out at me is that, after eight rounds are fired, the parties separate or accommodate to the point where additional shooting is not necessary, at least in the short term, even though the officer is fully capable of firing more rounds. NYPD shooting accuracy has improved steadily, but the average hit percentage is still below twenty, so, out of eight rounds fired, only one or two are likely to impact anywhere on the suspect. In most cases, hit or not, the suspect disengages and runs away.

If you're wondering if there is a point lurking in all this:

If you have enough rounds in your magazine to get you through the initial exchange and still have some rounds left, you can then reload at your leisure. If you go to slide lock prior to the fight ending, then you'll have to reload and resume firing on an emergency basis. We teach students to reload on an emergency basis in any event, but having enough rounds to get you through the fight without the necessity of a reload bringing about an inconvenient interruption would appear to provide a genuine advantage.

Debates about calibers, accuracy, and ammunition aside, a fifteen-shooter or even an eleven-shooter would appear to be a better choice than a seven or eight-shooter, at least in New York City!

John


http://www.theppsc.org/Grossman/Farnam/NYPD.htm


IMHO, always carry a reload.
 
uncontrollable urges

The standard quantity of ammo carried in the jungles of Vietnam was 100 or even 140 rounds of rifle ammunition. Approx. 43 rounds of 5.56 mm to the pound, and only 20 or so for the 7.65. Those carrying the 1911 carried 50.
That's my reply for your gang scenario, or the civil turmoil of N.O. type of thing. Not to mention a prolonged or more wide spread occurence, such as would happen in the "survivalist" catastrophe.

My experience? It is so, so tempting to reply to "enemy fire" with lots of loud noise in the hopes of making him cringe as you are doing. I had to correct and recorrect the men I was responsible for, to take well aimed shots that counted. The range was often close too. And these were courageous men, but for the most part, the new and inexperienced ones. We did get helicopter resupply readily, but it was only those self -controlled soldiers that decided the outcome of battles.
I had to insist, and enforce compliance often, that only semi-auto fire was permitted.

That is where my reply to you enters. Even with semi-auto fire, a lot of ammo can be consumed in defending you life. Think of how quickly it goes at a range shoot.

Many men will just not be able to have such a degree of control over their fear, so I'm recommending much more to you than some of the others.

Now if you are discussing a handgun and law enforcement patrolling; after long periods of no shooting at all, that many experience, it will be a temptation to rationalize, or think that you are only being practical, and carry several reloads at the most.
If that is your decision, make every shot count,
and get some type of US Marine duress training for your composure.

The famous Miami -FBI shootout is a good example to learn about how much ammo you may need. And also a verification of what I stated previously on stress related urges.
There was a police shooting her in Pgh, I believe it was in June. A bezerk young killer appeared; at what was measured as no more than 35 feet in front of a cruiser and began to just shoot to kill. The officers immediately ducked, exited and returned fire. I think it was 78 or even more rounds fired. No one. Yes, no one was struck! That is the reality of being under fire.

Having said all this. Remember that posessing sufficient ammo to see you through can also give the idea that you can just blaze away.

That is why you'll find me in the single shot revolver and bolt action rifle forums mostly. Those black powder rifle soldiers of our Revolutionary War and single shot rifle soldiers of the Civil war had bigger than mini balls.
 
I knew a guy that carried a full SIG and two spare 20 rounders, for a total of 56 rounds. That was his standard CCW setup.

"Average" is 8, by definition some are more than 8. Do you really want to end up a statistic?
 
We're not talking firefight here, Im looking at something small like a K9 and getting the 8 round mags +1 in the pipe and carying 2 spare mags (25 rounds)
FWIW, my CCW is a S&W 3913LS, which is also 8+1. I do carry +P (Cor-Bon 115-gr) and am very confident in the gun's accuracy.
 
My usual grab -n- go gun is my Kahr PM-9. In it I carry 6+1 124gr.+p Gold Dots. I also carry 1 spare 6 rnd mag of the same ammo. So while kicking around I have 13 rnds on me.

Now, If I was going anywhere that was a bit less secure I would take my Sig P229 with 12+1 125gr. 357 sig GDs and a spare mag of 12.

A trip to Detroit and it's environs would have me carrying both :D
 
As a general rule, I figure if I'm ever in a situation that 13-15 rounds of .45ACP, 18 rounds of .44mag, or 22 rounds of .40S&W can't get me out of I've made a huge mistake. As a civilian (not in post-Katrina N.O. or similar) I should never allow myself to be in a situation where suppressive fire is necessary. Situations like that require a rifle, and, if all I've got is a pistol, chances are I'm dead no matter how many rounds I'm carrying.
 
From what I understand, the formula for determining the number of rounds necessary is fairly simple:

X*Y+1=number of rounds necessary to carry.

X = Number of BG
Y = Number of rounds it takes to make BG stop

Since I never know in advance the values for X and Y, I carry a G19 with one spare magazine.

This allows for 29 BG at 1 round each
14 BG at 2 round each
9 BG at 3 round each
7 BG at 4 round each
5 BG at 5 round each
4 BG at 6 round each
4 BG at 7 round each
3 BG at 8 round each
3 bg at 9 round each

Of course I rounded all of those to keep at least one round left since I can't stop a fraction of a BG.

Of course... if I used one 15 round magazine and one 30 round magazine... :D well, you get the idea.
 
You should always have enough ammunition to completely reload any firearm you carry at least once.

One spare magazine is the bare minimum.

The maximum really depends on how much weight you can carry and what other items you have to carry, along with your objective.

A couple 30 rounders for the defensive AR is plenty, probably never need the second magazine, or even more than a few rounds out of the first, but they are there for that unlikely situation where you do need them.

In Iraq with the constant threat of serious adversaries 12 magazines and a couple ammo cans full of more loaded mags starts looking more reasonable.

For most of us 1 to 2 reloads for a handgun and 4 to 6 reloads for a long gun are the most we would ever actually carry (as opposed to how many magazines and how much ammo you own, a completely different subject)

How many rounds do you really need? As many as it takes to stop the threat, whether it is one well aimed round to the head or every single round you have.

Better to have more than you need than need more than you have.
 
Sounds like some of you guys are expecting to battle your way out of Falujia!

Average self defense encounter where shots are fired is 2-3. I think the FBI have statistics to bear this out. Most self defense encounters just amount to showing the gun, no shots fired. I carry the mag that is in the gun, 7 rounds plus one in the chamber, plus a fast opening knife.
 
I carry a Kahr PM9 in the pocket with 6+1 and a spare 7 round magazine. 14 rounds.

On duty I have a Beretta with three 15 round magazines. 45 rounds.

On those occasions where I feel no need to be armed I have a S&W Model 38 Bodyguard with 5 rounds and a speed strip of 6. 11 rounds.

I feel comfortable with those options and they fit my lifestyle.

I believe that if I am involved in a gun fight the fact that I have a gun and practice often (IDPA) will be a major factor. A reload is a good thing to have and more is better but I am quite happy with only one reload when off duty.

Time and experience will allow you to make up your own mind. That is more important than our collective opinion. The chances are you will never need a personal handgun and if you do your confidence level is key. Carry what you feel comfortable with. :)
 
I need suspenders

With due respect -Havegunjoe.

Are you familiar with the Lubby's TX restaurant massacre? I forget the year, and my spelling may be incorrect. These type of things do not go into the statistics for average, or self defense situation. since no poor soul there had a weapon to defend themselves.
Here in Pgh there have been more than "average" shootings recently; way more.
I suppose Joe, I couldn't carry a 500 round resupply box of ammo around either, but the Boy Scouts motto is a good one. Be prepared.

With the visciousness of the criminal having increased dramatically from those in our generation, I think if your gun weighs 24 ounces, then carry an offsetting equal weight of ammo on the other side of your body.

I carried a nice Case field knife in the jungles of Vietnam, 1968-9, and there were several occasions where it almost was called into use.
However, I carried enough ammo, so as never to have to use it.

Now, civie life is not warfare, but defending your life against some bezerker or group of them may require the use of more than a handfull of ammo.
I live in a nice neighborhood, things have "always" been pleasant, but I do not decieve myself that a crisis cannot come upon me -suddenly, so I "hump" with the extra weight and forget that it's there.

Reguards; from the discarded generation. Jim
 
People being people, and having to live under different circumstances, of course brings up the increasing difficulty of carrying increasing loads. While is it Good to have a gun, it is Better to have a gun with a reload, better still to have a gun with two reloads, better still to have a gun with three reloads, better still to have a gun with three reloads and a BUG, better still to have a gun, three reloads, a BUG and BUG reloads.

Yet with each step up in this ladder comes increasing difficulty, and hence, less of a likelyhood that that "step" of carry would occur. If I made a mental choice to go full-out with a gun, 3 reloads, a BUG w/reloads, chances are I would carry less often. I think that's why so many people end up with a j-frame in the pocket.

It's better to carry more, but it's more likely that you'll carry if it's less.

-James
 
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