carnaby
Member
Just curious. Do you carry with your handloads? Is your HD gun holding handloads? Or do you just handload for fun and practice, but only carry factory ammo?
How many use handloads for CCW and Self Defense?
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larry_minn
Member
I would not carry my reloads in public unless I would happen not to have any factory ammo along. Just don't see any advantage and many possible disadvantages. (dead horse topic)
Mannlicher
Member
Has it been that long since we hashed this old argument out? Seems like it keeps popping up, just like the .45 vs 9mm, or revolver vs Semi Auto silliness.
OP
OP
carnaby
Member
No arguments here 
I'm just curious how many people carry what. I carry my handloads sometimes, but I feel better carrying factory stuff. On the other hand, factory stuff is expensive, and I can practice more with my handloads. Definitely pros and cons to both.
I'm just curious how many people carry what. I carry my handloads sometimes, but I feel better carrying factory stuff. On the other hand, factory stuff is expensive, and I can practice more with my handloads. Definitely pros and cons to both.well, while I see no reason a handload would not perform as well if not better for personal defense (if made by somebody who knows what they're doing)- my only issue is whether or not it would look worse in court (assuming you had to go to court).
other than that, I have no problem with it.
other than that, I have no problem with it.
Imaginos
Member
I prefer factory for carry just in case Murphy comes along, but if all I have in stock is handloads then that is what I carry.
"I sometimes carry 260gr LSWC handloads in my 45LC for winter and woods carry.
Biker"
I'm with Biker. My and my wife's self defense guns around home and out in the city, are factory cartridges.
But ....
When out in the boonies of Idaho, where there are Black bears, a few Grizzlies, loads of mountain lions, and wolves, I carry my S&W .41 Mag., or my Ruger Colt .45, with heavy handloads.
So, if a two legged "wolf" decided to attack me out in the boonies, I'd be using handloads. Guarantee you I would not worry one whit about handloads in a situation such as that.
FWIW.
L.W.
Biker"
I'm with Biker. My and my wife's self defense guns around home and out in the city, are factory cartridges.
But ....
When out in the boonies of Idaho, where there are Black bears, a few Grizzlies, loads of mountain lions, and wolves, I carry my S&W .41 Mag., or my Ruger Colt .45, with heavy handloads.
So, if a two legged "wolf" decided to attack me out in the boonies, I'd be using handloads. Guarantee you I would not worry one whit about handloads in a situation such as that.
FWIW.
L.W.
M2 Carbine
member
Mostly I've been carrying factory ammo in carry guns. I'm not worried about the legalities. I just don't feel like duplicating a load such as Cor Bon, that I like.
The loaded HD guns have a mixed bag. The .223 pistols and rifles usually stay loaded with JSP reloads. The 38 pistols stay loaded with Federal +P 158gr LHP. Other guns, 45, 9mm Makarov, etc, are loaded with mostly hand loads.
I doubt I'll be buying any more factory ammo, except 22LR.
The loaded HD guns have a mixed bag. The .223 pistols and rifles usually stay loaded with JSP reloads. The 38 pistols stay loaded with Federal +P 158gr LHP. Other guns, 45, 9mm Makarov, etc, are loaded with mostly hand loads.
I doubt I'll be buying any more factory ammo, except 22LR.
Katana8869
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I have factory ammo in all of my carry .45's now, but I am seriously considering just using my reloads after I cycle out my factory .45 ammo for 3 reasons:
1. It is getting harder and harder for me to justify paying what .45 factory ammo cost when I load ammo that performs just fine for much less.
2. I have fired thousands of my reloads with no reliability problems. Why should I expect them to perform any differently for carry than they do at the range?
3. I believe the .45 to be an inherently potent cartridge and not as dependent on ammo choice as other, smaller calibers.
I plan to keep using factory JHP ammo in my 9mm's though.
1. It is getting harder and harder for me to justify paying what .45 factory ammo cost when I load ammo that performs just fine for much less.
2. I have fired thousands of my reloads with no reliability problems. Why should I expect them to perform any differently for carry than they do at the range?
3. I believe the .45 to be an inherently potent cartridge and not as dependent on ammo choice as other, smaller calibers.
I plan to keep using factory JHP ammo in my 9mm's though.
Kevin108
Member
Right now the only factory rounds in .45 I have are round nose. I've shot about 50 of my reloaded HPs though so when I carry my 1911, that's what's in it.
fast eddie
Member
Golden sabers are too spendy to practice with, so I practice with reloads and carry the gs.
Alphazulu6
member
Yeah I agree. If you use handloads in a questionable self defense shooting ... it does not help your case. And if you get a liberal jury with a prosecution lawyer who knows what he is doing you might as well just shoot yourself with your own handloads...it would probably be more pleasant
Plenty of nice Winchester Ranger, Corbon, Golden Dot, Golden Sabre, whatever ammo out there that will serve you well
larry_minn
Member
\ First keep in mind I am tossing out numbers. That you pay more/less for ammo/training/permits/range time does not really matter.
I always wonder at the cost concern for using factory ammo. You buy a $450 gun, $80 holster, $150 training class, $100 permit. Few hundred bucks in practice ammo and same amount for range time. (basicly a grand all together) You have already gone thru a few hundred (carry) rds (lets say at $20 per 50) Now its $30 per 50 so you decide to carry your reloads. (maybe $4 per 50) and they are as reliable as factory. Great.
Lets say you do have to defend yourself. It actually goes to trial. The prosecuter tries to lable you as a person who wanted to make your gun more deadly. (remember the jury likely will not have anyone who has any real knowledge of firearms) Your lawyer (lets say $300 per hr) spends 20 minutes in court (with a expert wittness who charges $500 for being there) plus the legal aid who had to call/set this up. THat extra $10 every other month looks fairly cheap.
Yep it winds up being a (legally) non issue. BUT it just MIGHT stick in mind of a jurer.
I always wonder at the cost concern for using factory ammo. You buy a $450 gun, $80 holster, $150 training class, $100 permit. Few hundred bucks in practice ammo and same amount for range time. (basicly a grand all together) You have already gone thru a few hundred (carry) rds (lets say at $20 per 50) Now its $30 per 50 so you decide to carry your reloads. (maybe $4 per 50) and they are as reliable as factory. Great.
Lets say you do have to defend yourself. It actually goes to trial. The prosecuter tries to lable you as a person who wanted to make your gun more deadly. (remember the jury likely will not have anyone who has any real knowledge of firearms) Your lawyer (lets say $300 per hr) spends 20 minutes in court (with a expert wittness who charges $500 for being there) plus the legal aid who had to call/set this up. THat extra $10 every other month looks fairly cheap.
Yep it winds up being a (legally) non issue. BUT it just MIGHT stick in mind of a jurer.
joe4702
Member
So if someone handloads, for example, a 158gr. SWC-LHP round, how would a prosector know its a handload and not a factory "FBI" round?
Ready2Defend
Member
My question about reloads is the water tightness of the reloaded cartridge. I don't expect to get my carry pistol wet and then need to use it before unloading and cleaning said pistol. Unplanned events do happed. What if... I got stuck in a drenching rain storm, fell out of a fishing boat ect. Would the cartridges fire? The chance of weapon getting wet in a wilderness setting would seem higher than urban.
I had heard the factory seals the primer and rim with a lacquer to make them water tight. Isn't that the red stuff around the primer I see on military ammo? Has anyone on the forum who handloads tested the watertightness of their handloads?
The issue is reliability. Will it go bang or just click when really needed?
I had heard the factory seals the primer and rim with a lacquer to make them water tight. Isn't that the red stuff around the primer I see on military ammo? Has anyone on the forum who handloads tested the watertightness of their handloads?
The issue is reliability. Will it go bang or just click when really needed?
target1911
Member
Jacka L Ope
Member
Given my handloads mimic factory offerings, I have no misgivings about carrying them wherever.
gunman42782
Member
I carry my handloads for CCW and have for 15 or more years. They can say what they want to in court. I would say if you had to defend yourself, the fact that you used handloaded ammo would be the least of your worrys. It could be easily proved that your ammo was no more "destructive" than factory ammo.
Katana8869
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Aside from hearing this argument every time the subject of carrying handloads for SD comes up, I have also heard this same argument in several FMJ -vs- JHP threads on various gun forums.
Honestly, what does everyone expect will happen when the prosecution presents to the court that at the time of the shooting, the defendant (you or me) "had deliberately choosen to carry the absolute most lethal Ninja Killing, ultra top shelf, whiz bang JHP rounds money could buy? Bullets that have been banned in some states because of their destructive power and their capacity to wound and maim far beyond that of standard ammunition? ect, ect and blah, blah, blah" If anyone thinks a lawyer is not going to come after them with the same argument while carrying ANY kind of factory JHP round they are wrong.
Think you'll be safer from this using FMJ? Forget it. You will be labeled as an extremist who used "the very same bullets that our troops are using even now to kill terrorist in mortal combat on the battlefield."
This whole court issue is a non argument. If any of us are ever in a self defense shooting, it is a safe assumption that some one will try to demonize you no matter what you have in your weapon.
As to what I put in my gun, my ammunition, factory or reloads, is picked for reliability and my confidence in it to protect my life. I have reloads now that fit the bill and as I stated previously I am condsidering carrying them.
If I ever end up in court I will do my best to choose my attorney with much the same qualites in mind.
OpFlash
Member
Massad Ayoob posted in a similar thread in GlockTalk reiterating the his opinion in an earlier article he wrote that echos what you are saying.
However, I believe in the case in question the prosecutor was able to convincingly suggest that the man reloaded in order to boost the power of his rounds over factory rounds. I believe with the cost of ammo today there is a very valid reason to be shooting and carrying your own reloads.
shadowalker
Member
I have no doubt of the reliability of my hand loads but choose not to carry them for self defense.
Too many potential problems with prosecutors in a shoot situation, $15 to 20 to replace carry ammo every 4 to 6 months is pretty affordable.
I do hand load the same bullets in my reserve and in a SHTF scenario will use them but not for daily carry / defense.
With an anti gun prosecutor they will make you look bad every way they can, using hollow point ammo, using ammo more powerful than the police, using an expensive or modified weapon, using special hand loaded ammo in your basement designed to be more deadly, etc.
Jury members have remarked that a person using hollow point ammo swayed them to a guilty verdict. No reason to give the prosecution more points than you have to.
Too many potential problems with prosecutors in a shoot situation, $15 to 20 to replace carry ammo every 4 to 6 months is pretty affordable.
I do hand load the same bullets in my reserve and in a SHTF scenario will use them but not for daily carry / defense.
With an anti gun prosecutor they will make you look bad every way they can, using hollow point ammo, using ammo more powerful than the police, using an expensive or modified weapon, using special hand loaded ammo in your basement designed to be more deadly, etc.
Jury members have remarked that a person using hollow point ammo swayed them to a guilty verdict. No reason to give the prosecution more points than you have to.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I remember an article or two by Massad Ayoob that contained this as a reason not to use handloads. The prosecutor could argue that factory rounds just weren't "deadly enough" for you. It's sad that in today's society it goes beyond whether or not it was a justified shoot and leave it at that (especially in civil court).
I occasionally carry handloads, but only if I'm out of factory ammo (for a carry gun. For hunting or woods I use handloads.) I do like being able to play with the load and get the desired performance as well as perform my own quality control but it's possible that could come back to bite you.
Maybe Massad will chime in on this thread, but I wonder if this would also hold true for semi-factory reloads such as Double Tap or Buffalo Bore ammo which is loaded hotter than most factory +P.
I have very, very, very, very little money. Keeping both my CCW pieces and their spare mags fully loaded requires 58 rounds of .40 S&W. Factory 180 gr .40 S&W Golden Sabers, locally, are $29.99 per 25. The exact same bullet, at the exact same velocity, using better quality powder (Vihtavuori), handloaded in once-fired brass, about $25 per 100. My handloaded stuff feeds and fires 100%, so I see no reason to pay 480% more for factory ammo.
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