How much Old School is to much for a new rifle?

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M118LR

M118LR

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Started cleaning the closet, bad idea. There on the self sat two new in the box Weaver 2-10X36 30mm tubed scopes. Got another one mounted on a Mini-30 Tactical Carbine used for hunting. Those two new in the box scopes reminded me that I don't have a 16-18 inch barreled Bolt Action Carbine to mount one on. Started running my fingers through the pages of the interweb, created a conundrum.

Old School hunting rifles all had controlled round feed, iron sights, (buis) and they where tapped & drilled for scope mounting. Definitely a good feature when hunting dangerous game that can fight back. But is it a real requirement for a carbine that's most likely going to be used on hoofed game? Since I don't attempt shots on game beyond the rifle/cartridges point blank range:

If I was going with a long action 30-06 I'd probably want controlled round feed and at least 18 if not 20 inches of barrel. Sensible and utilitarian. Probably serviceable on most critters in the 48. (CONUS)

But for hoofed animals to say 280 Yards, the short action & .308 Winchester with a 180 grain Nosler should suffice at least in CONUS. The short action should save an Old Man a couple of ounces, especially in a hunting carbine that is carried much more than it's shot. (Like hopefully 1 actual time per game animal hunted.)

Well, that's where the trouble began. Remington still makes my Old Favorite Model 7. The (85922) comes with a 16 inch threaded barrel (so it would accept an AAC Brakeout) but (BUIS) ain't even a consideration. So I started searching: Mossberg, Ruger, Winchester, etc...
Somehow it's either Safari Grade or Semi-automatic Mag feed Bolt Actions that come equipped with iron sights. Nowadays I probably wouldn't trust myself with even a 100 yard shot on game with only irons, so am I over thinking this? Or Is all my Old School accumulated Knowledge just getting in the way of a Bolt Action Carbine to mount one of the WE210X36T30M scopes sitting dormant New in the box?

So I'll ask for some sage advice from the members of this forum, Thank You Folks for your input on how to solve this dilemma.

Yup, I got the itch to once again have a Short Barreled Light Weight Bolt Action .308 Win. Carbine in the arsenal. I just can't pull the trigger on which one. Please Help!!!!!!
 
I dislike iron sights and a scope on the same rifle. With the exception of flip up sights on an AR, by necessity one or the other has to be at the wrong height for the comb. Unless you get something with an adjustable comb I guess, but I'm guessing that's not your style.
 
someguy2800 said:
I dislike iron sights and a scope on the same rifle. With the exception of flip up sights on an AR, by necessity one or the other has to be at the wrong height for the comb. Unless you get something with an adjustable comb I guess, but I'm guessing that's not your style.
Click to expand...

Both of my DPMS AR's have the Magpul PRS. But the irons need not be more than the Express V Notch for a short barreled bolt action. Back Up Iron Sights are honestly just going to be backups. But most adjustable comb stocks carry allot of extra weight.
 
To me, I don’t see a situation where I would know the scope broke and swap to irons. I will either not know the scope broke and shoot with a broke scope, or I’m probably done for the day. But I’m not trophy hunting and I don’t mind calling it a day if something is visibly wrong with the scope. If you don’t think you would use them due to sight, then having them isn’t much benefit. I don’t think they are bad but spending the money on a better scope rather than tracking down a special rifle with them seems like a better use of time and money.

The days of very fragile optics are done. Not that today’s optics won’t die, just not as frequent and not in the lifetime of the average hunting use. If my life depended on it, I’d want the backup. Luckily I don’t live in a place where it’s life or death.
 
It's not all about life or death. Lets say you spend 4 days paddling to reach that secluded honey hole. As you pile the gear out of the bottom of the canoe...... Low & Behold your scopes become inoperative. Maybe it was stepped on, wedged beneath some other gear, etc.... But you and your partner just spent 4 days paddling to get there, are Y'all gonna share your partners rifle? Your rifle scope might even have survived the canoe trip, but what happens if your rifle slides off your shoulder climbing an escarpment. It may only tumble 30 or 40 feet down the rock face, but it's out of commission when you get down to retrieve it. The further you travel to leave civilization behind, the more important it may become to have redundant sighting systems. JMHO.

Usually I like to match the price of the firearm to the price of the optic. But I've used this particular scope while woods hunting for quite some time.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/8...ts-first-focal-illuminated-emdr-reticle-matte
 
Well, it depends... and you already hit on the key element IMO. On a rifle that you use to hunt in your own local area BUIS aren't that big of a deal, it really doesn't matter. On any rifle that I might take on a hunting trip I want BUIS on it... Access to a backup rifle or bringing a spare scope, in rings, all set to go are also options but the BUIS are just easier. Call it old fashioned or old school or whatever but if you fall down, drop your rifle or the sling breaks loose the scope is the part of your rifle most susceptible to inoperable damage. If you hunt in all weather conditions a fogged over scope is another possibility. BUIS can save the day as well as the trip.....
 
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For the most part, I go with scope exclusively for hunting rifles. I have not had a scope fail in the field; ever. If you have anxiety about the care and welfare of your rifle, keep it closer.
That being said, if I am more than an hour from the home gun safe, I have a backup rifle in the truck. I left the irons on my .458 Mauser because I hate filler screws. My AR gas 45 degree offset BUIS. It's not a hunting gun, and the scope does not have to be removed to use them.
 
I own 1 centerfire rifle without an optic. It is waiting for one. Buy the rifle without the sights and be happy. Not getting something you will never use is less of a tradeoff than getting a gun you like less that has the feature that you know you won't use
 
The problem is that iron sights just isn’t offered on most bolt guns these days unless it’s designated for dangerous game hunting. Where money is limited it just seems to make more sense to invest in good quality glass and combine it with one of the modern low cost sub moa rifles.
 
M118LR said:
It's not all about life or death. Lets say you spend 4 days paddling to reach that secluded honey hole. As you pile the gear out of the bottom of the canoe...... Low & Behold your scopes become inoperative. Maybe it was stepped on, wedged beneath some other gear, etc.... But you and your partner just spent 4 days paddling to get there, are Y'all gonna share your partners rifle? Your rifle scope might even have survived the canoe trip, but what happens if your rifle slides off your shoulder climbing an escarpment. It may only tumble 30 or 40 feet down the rock face, but it's out of commission when you get down to retrieve it. The further you travel to leave civilization behind, the more important it may become to have redundant sighting systems. JMHO.

Usually I like to match the price of the firearm to the price of the optic. But I've used this particular scope while woods hunting for quite some time.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/8...ts-first-focal-illuminated-emdr-reticle-matte
Click to expand...

If that’s what you’re doing, do what makes you comfortable. I guess I simply don’t hang around the crowd that paddles for four days in and four days out. I’d be worried more about how I’m going to get the animal out on a canoe that I paddled 4 days in. If you are doing an extreme and want the protection of back up sights, by all means do it. I’d think if you were into the extremes you’d also be willing to pay for quality and with that get a scope known for reliability at any cost, again minimizing your risk.

For the average hunter who heads out in the morning and can afford a day of down time (which seems to be the vast majority) iron sights have minimal benefit. I don’t hunt like you state so I don’t worry. If I miss half a day hunting because the scope died, I can have it swapped and resighted before the next opportunity to go out. I’m sure that environment is why I look at iron sight with minimal interest. If you are in a much more demanding environment, then do what works for that environment. I think the masses hunt closer to the way I hunt and as such we see iron sights deleted from the average hunting rifle.

Out of curiosity, how many times have you taken off a scope to use iron sights on a hunting rifle on a scope made in the last 10-15 years? I haven’t had one die, but I’m also not dropping my rifle down mountains. Maybe from a blind to the ground or from my shoulder to the ground if I’d trip/fall though that luckily isn’t common.
 
$150-200 at any average smith will get sights put on any rifle.

Iron sights, short barrel, 308win, scope compatible, sounds like the Ruger GSR would be a fit.

I have personally found iron sights to be just as fragile, if not moreso, than quality optics. I’ve broken front sight blades and broken semi-buckhorn “horns” after dropping or falling with a rifle. I’ve yet to have such incidence cause a scope to become inoperable.
 
I really like the looks of iron sights on a bolt action rifle. The only bolt action rifle I own with iron sights is the first one I bought a long long time ago. I occasionally ponder the idea of having sights added to some bolt actions but everything time wind up putting the money into a nicer scope.

This is the first time I’ve heard of iron sights on a bolt action rifle termed as BUIS. I think of BUIS as sights that are easily removed. Not that it matters though.

With 99% of the hunting I do there is another rifle handy if my optic breaks. With 90% of my hunting my whole arsenal is available if something breaks - I just opened my back door and snapped the picture below. My work around though is to use QD mounts and have a backup scope with QD mounts along. I’ve done that once in forty years. It was the one hunting trip I went on that wasn’t on family land or land belonging to a very close friend, or my land which I live on.

When you say old school how far back are you talking about? Did Jack O’Connor’s .270’s have iron sights?

Are Remington 700’s old school? They are not CRF.

I guess the meaning of old school is in the eyes, age and location of the beholder. In no way am I trying to denigrate you OP but when I think of old school bolt actions I don’t think of 18-20” barrels. I think of 22-26” barrels.


AC593B86-0F4E-44EF-961D-78BCD478B74F.jpeg
 
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Deer I've lost to a scope failing in any manner:0 Deer I've lost to iron sights failing in any manner:1 The front sight on my Hawken got knocked around in the gun sock in the back of my truck in the half mile drive to where I was hunting. I missed a doe at 30 yards, shot right in front of her, nicked the brisket, wasted most of the day tracking her. Went to pick up the trail in the morning, found where she had slept, and the grazing shot had stopped bleeding. My iron sighted rifles ride in the cab now, as well as my scoped rifles. The only time I ever had an optic fail, it was the mount; I had a barrel clamp Picatinny rail that came with a bipod mounted on the gas tube of my AK with a red dot on it. Fortunately, I discovered the ever-widening groups at the range. :oops: I did have one other fail when I was shooting it, but not my rifle. I was shooting a Mosin Nagant a friend bought, that the scope mount had been JB Welded on. The whole thing, mount and scope came back and hit me in the face. No damage, we laughed about it, he wanted to take the scope off anyway.
 
I have personally found iron sights to be just as fragile, if not moreso, than quality optics. I’ve broken front sight blades and broken semi-buckhorn “horns” after dropping or falling with a rifle. I’ve yet to have such incidence cause a scope to become inoperable.
Click to expand...

While working at the LGS I've personally seen numerous scopes that were destroyed from drops and falls. I've seen many other scopes fail from other causes. Although today's scopes are much more dependable then yesteryear's they still fail, especially from accidental abuse... It happens.... Of course I've also seen broken iron sights as well, usually fronts, but I would disagree that irons are more fragile than scopes.

Regardless which is tougher though, the point is having two independent sighting systems. I wouldn't want my possibly once in a lifetime hunting trip, far from civilization, ruined because I didn't have a backup sighting system (either a spare scope or irons) or another rifle available....
 
When it comes to iron sights, resistance to damage depends on the design and construction.

I find that Williams and Marbles sights are fragile little things compared to say NECG, Ruger GSR, or military types.
 
If I were going hunting in a remote area I would bring a spare rifle as I always do, even when only an hour from home. If I was hiking in I would bring a spare compact scope, and rings in my pack. If that doesn't work I guess I'm hunting with my revolver.
 
chicharrones said:
When it comes to iron sights, resistance to damage depends on the design and construction.

I find that Williams and Marbles sights are fragile little things compared to say NECG, Ruger GSR, or military types.
Click to expand...

I agree, I would trust my leupold scopes to survive a fall better than I would my williams.
 
I understand optics today are very good, but I just prefer having iron sights as a backup. Even though my Crickett is wearing a scope (eyes getting bad), I keep the irons in a little bag inside the stock, just in case.
 
My choice.

https://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26974.html

18" barrel, weighs right at 7 lbs with scope, shoots 1/2 MOA, gives up 60 fps to my 22" guns. Comes with a 3 round magazine, but takes 5 and 10 round Accuracy International style magazines. Cost $395 + $5 transfer fee.

I've been hunting since the early 1970's, I've NEVER had a scope to fail. I've had iron sights fail twice.

If you absolutely have to have CRF and irons:

https://ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6829.html

Not worth double the price to me, but it is to some.
 
Varminterror hit the nail on the head that $200 and a trip to the gunsmith will have iron sights on whatever you like if you insist on having them.
 
Some of my scoped bolt action Centerfires have iron sights: Rem 721 in .257 Roberts, M77 RSI in .243, because they came with them. Others have plain barrels; Mauser M96 straight pull in .270 and a CZ550 in 6.5x55 because they didn’t come with them.

Other than my opinion of the aesthetics of the Mannlicher stock calling for a front sight on top to balance the metal cap at the bottom of the muzzle, I can take them or leave them on Centerfire hunting rifles.

Stay safe!
 
I've had both controlled feed and push feed. Never seemed to make any real difference.

I've always liked Weaver K-4s and Leupolds. Never a problem.

I hunted the northeast quadrant and around the eastern edge of the Solitario country for some 30 years. Some slips and falls. No scope failures.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/T...b9f1097!8m2!3d29.4507471!4d-103.8088026?hl=en

Many and many a ten-mile day of walking hunting. Some less, of course, and a fair number of longer treks.
 
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