how to check 1911 for lug engagement?

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Thanks for that information, Tuner. We were working in two different worlds so I now know why I ignored that factor. I built guns out of new parts with NM Barrels and bushings, quality links and pins, properly polished upper surfaces in the slides, and ready for any kind of hot load that my clients want to destroy their gun with. I also knew how to break the upper lugs on the barrels so that they would not batter the slides. I quickly learned that quality is remembered long after price has been forgotton and my end users always got what they paid for. I have never had a Custom Caspian come back in 20 years, so I must have done something right. Several of my own 1911's have been chambered for 10mm Centaur and 400 Cor-bon and have had thousands of very hot rounds leave the muzzle with no problems that I know about. I still load up 255 grain cowboy bullets for my 1911's just for fun so I have done my share of high pressure work. That's only an extra 25 grains from hardball so I have never worried about battering lugs with them. That do tend to have a nice big BOOM when you shoot them that I enjoy!
 
As the World Turns

The Cap'n said:

We were working in two different worlds...

Yep...Bein' a po' boy with a shootin' addiction, I'd buy a clunker for 50 or 60
bucks...beat the rails down...weld up the lugs...sometimes the rails too...
square up the hammer hooks...add a little prep and a little buff and shoot the thing 'til it wore out or busted and start all over.:p

Wish I had all those old GI pistols now...They'd be worth a mint.:rolleyes:
I'd be willin' to bet that I've shot 50,000 bucks worth of slides and frames to destruction...but it was a hoot while it lasted.:D Even shot a barrel in half once...

One semi-complete 1918 Colt...70 dollars

15 hours cost of my labor in the rebuild (1969 dollars) 30 dollars

NOS and used GI parts....maybe 10 dollars(but I doubt it)

The look on my face when I realized that it was the barrel that went downrange...Priceless!

Welcome to my world!

Cheers!

Tuner the Scrounger
 
Different stroke for different folks, Tuner. We both had a lot of fun! I shot up 1000 rounds a week when I was a Deputy Sheriff through a Jaw Bone built buy Bill Bidwell. I still have a habit of betting my life on the best since it is the only one I will ever have. He told me that Commander was not a keeper so it went bye bye somewhere down the line. It sure was a neat double tapper and very easy to get out of the leather quick. But being a gun guy, some one had one I simply couldn't live without so it went away forever. No regrets on any trade I ever made. I aways got what I wanted out of them. "If it doesn't work when you need it, you will never need it again!" Words to live by.

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1954 LW Colt Commander Carry Gun
 
Tunner-How many rounds did it usually take you to tear up your lugs?

I have a Custom Open STI .45 with a ramped barrel which I use for pins. It was built with the Captain's type of lug treatment. I have used multiple different hot loads with 230, 255 and some 270-280 bullets trying to get an advantage. It has about 35,000 rounds through it and no sign of wear yet on the lugs. It runs fine.

John- I was not expecting any trouble until you posted. I guess I should watch things closely.

Dean
[email protected]
 
Tuner,
What do you consider to be minimum engagement for a long and
happy life?

Mr. Taylor,
I'm hardly an 'elite pistolsmith'. Just an old and cranky smiff trying to
support his family and keep his customers happy.

What's the difference between a pistolsmith and a pizza?











A pizza can feed a family of four!

Chuck:)
 
Long and Happy Life

All I can get, Chuck...:p

This is gonna take a little time and space, but I'll keep it as short as I
can.

As long as the slide lugs are at about 100% engagement in the barrel slots,
and the gun will used for standard-pressure .45 ACP ammo, it'll
live long and prosper...assuming that the barrel lugs are in spec and
equalized in the load bearing...but you knew that already.:cool:


When I planned on "something more"...High pressures and/or heavy bullets, I wanted all the barrel lug in the slide recesses that I could get. Most of the time, I had what I had. If the height of the barrel lugs didn't engage at least 75% of the depth of the recess in the slide, I didn't use it for those applications, and stuck with more or less standard ammo.

Of course, that would vary a little on the #3 lug, since there was the issue
of the slide havin' enough clearance on that one to keep from beatin' up
the front corner...so I usually had to be happy with whatever I got on that lug. The #2 lug could get deeper and still allow for clearance.

If I was determined to use the gun for that kinda thing...a toy mainly, but
also for a defensive gun to be carried into "Bear Country", I'd start by
fitting the barrel slots to engage the slide lugs at 100%...and check the
barrel lugs for depth in the slide. If it wasn't what I wanted, I'd have the
lugs welded and light in with a file until I got the barrel fairly centered up in the slide again, assemble the gun and see if it would go to battery...and
cut a little off the tops until it would go.

Then I'd remove metal until the barrel was centered vertically, blue the tops
of the lugs, and remove metal from the lugs until they just cleared...
remove another .010 inch from the front lug, and about .005 from the swcond. Blue the lugs again and test-fire the gun with a light load and spring to check for signs of interference at the front corners...and adjust accordingly with emery cloth in small increments. At that point, I lightly broke the corners of the barrel and slide lugs at 45 degrees and tested the gun with full-power loads. If there was no sign of rolling or flanging, I had a gun that would withstand a good amount of use with the heavy stuff.
Final step was lappin' it all in with Du Pont Rubbing compound...we didn't
have J&B then...and it was cheap and worked prety well.


Much of it was probably unnecessary, and may not have added enough life to the guns to make it worth the effort...but I had time on my hands and
liked to do the work...so I did the work...mainly for my own use, but I did a few for other guys too, and it seemed to work out pretty well.

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Interesting. I like just the right amount of lock-up so that the slide rides over the barrel smoothly when it fires and unlocks with a minimum amount of damage to the barrel hood. I have found it to be a varible in every gun I have built. I never do anything the the grooves in the slide where the barrel lugs ride. I like them to be nice and sharp to prevent any back and forth movement. Different Strokes for Different Folks, Huh, Tuner? If I had to use one dimension, I would say to get it as close to .050 as you can with a plus or minus of .004. I would be glad to stand corrected if there is a better ball park measurement I should use.
 
It's all about Tolerances

Dave said:

Interesting. I like just the right amount of lock-up so that the slide rides over the barrel smoothly when it fires and unlocks with a minimum amount of damage to the barrel hood.

Yep...We're *almost* on the same page, Cap'n. For high-stress applications, I like all that I can get, and don't consider light scuffing to be
damage, though there's sometimes a fine line there.
_______________________


I have found it to be a varible in every gun I have built.

Surely! Maximum engagement isn't as hard to get with a "Hard Fit"
barrel due to oversized/undersized dimensions. 95% of my experience has been with whatever barrel came with the gun...and those variables that fell
outside of my self-imposed parameters were corrected inasmuch as possible. It was "Old School" fitting, to be sure...and inferior to how it's
done today...but it was all I had or all I could afford at the time. Money
was short. Time cost me nothing.
_______________________________

Different Folks, Huh, Tuner? If I had to use one dimension, I would say to get it as close to .050 as you can with a plus or minus of .004....

Roger on the different strokes.:cool:

.050 plus/minus .004 is a good fit, but I'd always try to get it down to
.050 inch, plus .004/ minus none. If I could get .055 inch without hard
contact on the hood OR either lug, I was in heaven, and would routinely
spend hours holding a .001 inch tolerance. That's the toolmaker curse,
though...In that field, an .008 inch tolerance (plus/minus .004) is a football
field. We tend to think in terms of tenths instead of thousandths.
i.e. plus/minus .0001 inch, or even less.

I don't worry over tolerances that close with standard Hardball-Spec ammo though...just for certain applications...and I don't fool with things like that
these days anyway. When I was playing with it, I was an apprentice toolmaker, and combining practicing my trade and playing with my toys...
and it didn't seem like work at all. Win-Win!
Cheers!

Tuner
 
It's a Gypsy Curse, Tuner, and we all have one or more forms of it. My time was worth a lot ot me because with the work I did, we never knew if tomorrow would be there. I was very lucky and made it home every night but some did not. I also grew tired of P/P/J gujns very early on the game and had to make the best use of the limited amount of time I had to work on guns. I gave each project the very best effort I had that day, and have never regretted it. The junkers worked fine but they were nothing to be proud of and I wanted to be the best in the world, so I had to chose to build new guns from new parts to accomplish this mission and do it without a machine shop. Well, I didn't make it to the top but I did climb high enough to suit me and my guns were better than OK and my students in the Online Class can prove that now. They build their first gun better than we did after years of working on these things. All you have to do, is do everything to them along the way and they come out real nice. 58 parts is not Rocket Science or a Swiss Watch, but there are some tricks to the trade that help produce a fine handgun. We call these "Captain Eagle Cheap Tricks" and have a great deal of fun with them. I turned a couple of link pins along the way into crank shafts learning to fit barrels, but that is how you learn when there are no teachers to help you. It was a great ride!
 
We have two Online 1911 Classes we offer. One is the Patriot Online 1911 Class and the other is a very expensive GSP Gunsite Ultimate 1911 Experience where you build a GSP online and then go to Paulden (Gunsite) and shoot a week long 250 course of fire to see if you did it right. The Ex GSP has a very new and different slide treatment and made the way Gunsite likes 1911's, everything you need and nothing you don't need. I am not connected with Thunder Ranch in any way and as a matter of fact, I sat five feet away from Clint and his wife at the American Handgunner Booth and he would not even speak to me, even though he has known me for years. He is much too important to waste his time on old guys like me. Please feel free to contact me at my e mail address or send me a PM.
 
Well, I certainly screwed that one up.

I think my spam filter caught your email. :uhoh:

One more time, Dave? Pretty please?
 
I might be a little off topic.. here but....

I gotta give Dave a nod here... I just took Dave's online class...I gotta tell you Jammer, you'll get WAY more than you pay for! Besides you'll make a few new friends.

Oh by the way, you'll never quit once you begin building...I am planning out gun #3! Dave.. thanks for the great times I'll be in touch...my wife isn't as fond of my new hobby as I am...;) Captain my Patriot ran 373 rnds in one day last week... ZERO malfunctions!!!!! My brother said"like a Rolex watch...but noisier"

Chuck thanks for the quick check popsicle idea I'll keep it in mind, I'll try to round up a pic of the slide you worked on for me all finished up on the gun. Your work is awesome. BTW Chuck does GREAT machine work for those of you who don't know.. which is probably no-one on this board:)
 
I just took Dave's online class...I gotta tell you Jammer, you'll get WAY more than you pay for!

That's what I hear.

Now I just have to get the appropriation bill through the Household Congress.

Roses. I need roses...
 
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