how to deal with gunshot wound

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well it's a possibility, either by ND or by someone shooting you or someone else on purpose. Everyone who carries a firearm should have basic first aid knowledge and should carry a basic first aid kit. I don't mean the pointless ones you can buy with band-aids and bug bite ointment, I mean one with 4x4's, anti-clot pads, tourniquets, and other materials for actually slowing severe bleeding.
 
If nothing else is available for your sucking chest wound, consider duct tape.
1001 uses; it's a step up from chewing gum and baling twine.
 
Sucking chest wound:

A clean flexible airtight bandage material (read plastic sheet) about 4-6" square taped over the wound on three sides. Lowest side is left untaped.

The idea is it acts like a check valve, allowing air out (preventing pneumothorax, lung collapse by interstitial air), preventing air in, allowing fluid to drain.

Seek medical attention ASAP.

This info is a bit dated... although it seems combat lifesaving instructions change every month nowadays.

Current wisdom is to seal it up, entrance and exit wound, as best you can. The metallic bandage wrappers are the best (they are sterile on the inside before you open them), medics also precut MRE wrappers. Lots of 2-inch tape, covered over with lots of duct-tape.

Basically they found that the risk of allowing too much air to get in and collapse the remaining lung was greater than the risk of developing tension pnuemothorax from air not being able to escape. Pnuemothorax takes alot longer to develop than it does in the movies, and if you are monitoring the patient, when he/she shows signs you can always pop up a side of the seal, or do a needle chest decompression. Most of the time, though, the medevac or casevac will already be at the aid station by the time it becomes a problem.
 
pneumothorax

As far as I know, stateside EMTs are still being taught the "occlusive dressing taped on 3 sides" method for the sucking chest wound. As an ALS provider myself though, I'm more likely to do what you stated and seal the wound followed by needle decompression and apply a stopcock on there for bleeding excess trapped air as needed. This is all moot point for the OP though, as needle decompression is well past the first aid/first responder level.

There's nothing wrong really with the occlusive dressing/taped three sides method either. I've seen it work well enough in the field, admittedly not from a GSW.

I can't stress how important the whole "treat for shock" thing is too. The body can compensate on its own for a while, but if the underlying causes aren't addressed, it will be fighting a losing battle.

b
 
As far as I know, stateside EMTs are still being taught the "occlusive dressing taped on 3 sides" method for the sucking chest wound. As an ALS provider myself though, I'm more likely to do what you stated and seal the wound followed by needle decompression and apply a stopcock on there for bleeding excess trapped air as needed. This is all moot point for the OP though, as needle decompression is well past the first aid/first responder level.

There's nothing wrong really with the occlusive dressing/taped three sides method either. I've seen it work well enough in the field, admittedly not from a GSW.

I can't stress how important the whole "treat for shock" thing is too. The body can compensate on its own for a while, but if the underlying causes aren't addressed, it will be fighting a losing battle.

b

Yep, I think its a crapshoot even in the military as to the opinion of the instructor which method will be taught. I highly doubt that either method will do any harm to the patient as long as they are transported to higher echelon care within an hour or so, which is should be attainable in most parts of the continental US, or even in combat zones.

One of the few benefits of this sort of war is the rapid advancement in battlefield and trauma medicine. It seems by the time some new technique or technology has made it from the combat support hospitals to field units or the civilian world, something newer has come along to replace it.
 
Currently, NSP OEC education is teaching the four sided method with medical tape and a zip lock bag, burping the oclusive dressing if signs of tension pneumothorax develops.

The problem with quick cloth type stuff is that it can only work if it makes contact with the open blood vessels....not always possible with a GSW. Supposively the new stuff has H2O preapplied so the heat from hydrogen bonding lower.
 
The 3 sided plastic dressing was taught at my last first aide course, about 8 months ago, by Canadian Saint John Ambulance provider... Hasn't changed here in the last 5 years at least...

I'm gonna have to look into the technique you folks mentioned above... New info is good (seems the new CPR recommendations have increased survival by 3x.... though it's still abysmally low, if you need CPR....)

J
 
I learned the three-sided flutter valve technique for tension pneumothorax, and also needle chest decompression.

Someone made an excellent point earlier... the key thing is how fast the victim gets to professional medical care.
 
Open pneumothorax (also called a sucking chest wound) is highly unlikely. In order for a sucking chest wound to occur, the hole in the chest wall must be at least 2/3 of the diameter of the trachea. An adult has a trachea size between 6mm and 9mm.

This means the hole in the chest wall (not just in the skin) must be at least 4mm to 6mm. Considering that the tissue stretches to allow the bullet to pass, it would be unlikely for a small caliber weapon to cause such a wound. This is also why cramming a tampon into the hole is a bad idea (you stretch the hole, and allow more air to enter). A sucking chest wound is recognized by the presence of frothy blood around the wound. If you don't see this, your time is better spent controlling bleeding and supporting ABCs.

The treatment for an open pneumothorax is still an occlusive dressing taped on three sides.

Worrying about bleeding control and supporting the ABC's while moving the patient as little as possible is your best bet. Jostling a patient is likely to cause the bullet to migrate. This can cause more damage.
 
The Kotex Pad/Tampon trick is a lot older than Somlia-Iraq-Afaganistan. It was common place during Viet Nam and I beleive it originated ealier than that. I suspect it was a WWII or Korea inovation from a hard pressed Nurse in a field hospital.
 
Well, it depends on where they are hit.

1.) Shock - so you need to brush up on how to treat shock
2.) Pain
3.) Blood loss
4.) Infection

Infection can be mitigated, but without antibiotics could be a problem. But prompt treatment with an antiseptic will be a start. Salt water / Soda Water and blankets for the shock (elevation). For the blood loss, you will need Celox and direct pressure. If no doctor is around you need to know how to tie off an artery, which is frankly beyond me.

If my buddy gets shot, I don't care about pain (the real docs with real drugs are paid to manage that). If I'm treating him for bleeding or breathing, I don't care about infection, as this place is full of burn pits, open toilets, and moon dust. I care about keeping his blood in his body and his air in his lungs so he survives.

I'm not saying that you should tourniquet everything that bleeds by any stretch of the imagination, just pointing out that they are not as bad as it was once thought they were when applied properly.

Bingo. Latest wisdom with the tourniquets issued to soldiers is that there's a good chance they'll keep the limb if it's removed in a med shed in the first 4 hours.

I say some only because I am not aware of the distribution [of tourniquets] service wide.

Everyone in theater has at least one on their battle rattle. Every one of my guys has at least one on their battle rattle, one in their pocket, and 3-5 in the CLS bag in their vehicle.

What do some of you think about the Cav Arms clot packs sold in the Blue Press?

If it's Quickclot powder, I recommend against. I'm not a medic, but I've had more than one tell me that clumps of the cohesed material can break off and block veins, or worse reach the heart. The Army is issuing Quickclot gauze to each troop now. All the advantages of quickclot without the danger of breakage, since the powder is contained in the gauze. There's very convincing video of it being used to stop bleeding on the femoral artery of a pig, if you can find it.

What are the current recommendations for treating sucking chest wounds? Years ago, in our combat first aid classes, they emphasized that any wounds to the chest area should be closely checked.

Per Army CLS:
1) Have the victim exhale and hold his breath.
2) Cover with something non-breathable (your hand holding or wearing a latex glove, zip loc bag, or similar is fine for this).
3)Tell the victim to breath normally.
4)Repeat if you find an exit wound.

The metallic bandage wrappers are the best [for treating a sucking chest wound].

What's best is having an Asherman chest seal on hand, and an ER a stone's throw away. An Asherman should be very easy to procure, and easy to carry with you in a vehicle or small first aid kit while hiking. Much, much quicker than having to tape down 3 sides, and will adjust to any angle - patient could be sitting up, or lying down at any angle.

This is all moot point for the OP though, as needle decompression is well past the first aid/first responder level.

17 year old privates are learning it in Basic Training now. Physically not that difficult, but I still wouldn't do it stateside to someone I didn't know for fear of getting sued.

One of the few benefits of this sort of war is the rapid advancement in battlefield and trauma medicine.

Amen to that. Not long ago we were using crappy cheesecloth pressure dressings to make tourniquets and splints. And they always broke, even when new in the packaging.

To answer the OP, generally speaking it's going to be APPLY DIRECT PRESSURE, ACTIVATE EMS.
 
Another vote for getting training, even reading a good combat trauma reference would help. Put together a blowout kit. Or buy one prepackaged. You can get them as basic or advanced as you like, which will depend on your level of training. The packing list for mine is attached:

BLOWOUT KIT
CONTENTS

PACKED 4/22/09

Asherman Chest seal (1)
Krinkle gauze (2)
Petroleum Gauze (2)
Trauma Bandage (1)
VetWrap 4” (1)
QuickClot ACS (3)
14 and 16 Ga Catheters (for tension Pneumothorax) (1 each)
Elasticon 2” (1)
NATO Tourniquet (1)
Tape 1” (1)
Bandage Shears (1)
Nasopharyngeal tube (1)
# 15 scalpel blade (1)




Suppliers:

Deployment Medicine (NATO tourniquets) Tel:(804)448-8250

Moore Medical (QuikClot) Tel:800-234-1464

Common Cents EMS Supply (Asherman Chest Seal, Krinkle Gauze) Tel 866-388-4599

BB Pharmacy (Petroleum Gauze) bbpharmacy.com

Israeli Bandage from eBay

Tactical Response Gear 866-tac-gear


I believe some of the heat issues with QuikClot have been improved, but have not had to use it, so anyone w/ recent experience w/ the packets will hopefully chime in here.

Congrats for thinking ahead and trying to be prepared.

Steve
 
One of the things being overlooked in this thread:

You military guys are giving advice based upon the military model. Keep in mind that the OP is asking questions based on the civilian world. Many of the techniques being advanced here will place you in a bad position from a legal standpoint. If the OP does not have the training, and more importantly the sovereign immunity, following military techniques will not bode well for your liability.

and before someone trots out the "good samaritan" laws, remember that they only apply if you are practicing at your level of training. You are no more covered if you follow a strategy you saw in a book, than if you were to follow the Time-Life do it yourself neurosurgery handbook.
 
You military guys are giving advice based upon the military model.

Applying pressure on a wound wasn't invented in the military, but we may have improved upon it. Read what I wrote RE chest needle decompression - I don't think anyone in the military has advocated it for back home.
 
Too easy,

Plug the hole, both if there's an exit wound.

Assess situation to determine if it's the Ambulance or the Coroner that needs to be called.
 
Ok, being an EMT here is what I would do for a GSW if I was out and about with little/no medical supplies other than a CPR barrier device.

1. CALL 911! YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAGICALLY FIX A GSW. A SURGEON WILL. YOUR GOAL IS TO KEEP THEM ALIVE LONG ENOUGH TO GET THEM ON THE TABLE!

2. Check for ABC's (Airway, breathing Circulation). YOU SHOULD BE CONSTANTLY RECHECKING YOUR PATIENTS ABC'S. IT IS WHAT WILL ALLOW YOUR PATIENT TO SURVIVE
If they are not breathing, open their airway. If they are still not breathing, breath for them. If they have no heart beat, start CPR. If they are bleeding profusely treat the bleeding.

Bleeding should be dealt with first direct pressure, then elevation of the limb, then pressure point, and finally tourniquet.

Make sure you do a quick exam of their body. It does little good to stop the bleeding from their chest, if they are bleeding just as bad from their back. Know what is going on with your patient.

Regarding tourniquets: I was taught, and as our current standing philosophy on them is: You want to slow the bleeding with a tourniquet. If you clinch it down tight enough to completely stop it, that's too tight. You still want to ensure the limb is getting some perfusion, side effect is some minor bleeding.

Of course, if the nearest hospital is 45 minutes away, Life over Limb. Tighten it down, and keep the red stuff in.

For pneumothoraxes, we still stick to occlusive dressing and tape the three sides. For the love of it, don't start sticking tampons, maxi-pads, fingers, or q-tips into wounds. Direct pressure, and elevation. If you start shoving things into wounds, you run a good chance of making bad go to worse.

3. Manage any secondary injuries the best you can. If its not going to kill them, and you don't know how to fix it, leave it be. Its best to leave it as-is, then try something and f*** up.

Lastly, get some training. Get and maintain an up-to-date CPR certification. Take a first responder class. Stock up on knowledge. In an emergency all persons fall back on training, they never step up to the challenge. You can never know enough, and all that knowledge has a nasty tendency to disappear in an emergency. Train, study, and train!
 
What are the current recommendations for treating sucking chest wounds?

Here's a site that sorta guides you through it:

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Produ...nalmed/Procedures/TreataSuckingChestWound.htm

(You can tell people that you learned how to do it by reading the internet and practicing on your dog...)

............................................................................

Here's a site that sells the Asherman Chest Seal:

http://firstrespondersupplies.com/acs.htm

............................................................................

And, for the more adventurous folks out there...

How to needle a Tension Pneumothorax:

http://www.brooksidepress.org/Produ...med/Procedures/NeedleaTensionPneumothorax.htm
 
Well a lot of generic info is being handed out here, but it would kinda vary on where the wound was at as to what treatment was needed. Got ya leg shot half off? Tourniquet around whats left to prevent bleeding out might not be a bad idea. Got your ear shot off? Tourniquet around the neck a very bad idea.

Remember people duct tape has a light side and a dark side, it'll hold the world together, and quiet possibly your chest, but its gonna hurt when ya pull it off the hair.

I'm going to go a bit futher than Bobarino and say instead of shoot back how about shoot first. Then the GSW is the other persons problem, you can call 911 for them if ya feel bad about it.
 
when i went to the hospital for my gsw they bandaged(dont sew it shut) it up put me on antibotics.... if my leg wasnt broken i would have gone home with orders to change the bandages etc
 
I know through boot camp in 2002 we were told pressure, elevation, pressure point.

Then that all changed right befor my first deployment in 2005, tourniquet baby! If its a limb and its bleeding/missing/shredded F the band aid and get out the nifty little tourniquet that everyone has in their IFAC and use it. The docs can save the limb later you can save the life now. If you try direct presure and it don't work then you elevate and try presure point and that ain't working you have wasted a bunch of time and blood that could be saved with the tourniquet. Plus while you are applying presure you ain't shooting back. This is what I was told on my 05 and 06 deployments to Iraq, I am looking at going to Astan in a few months so it will be intresting to see what they are teaching now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top