How to determine what your rifle "likes"

[RKRNC]

Members on this forum have been helpful, courteous, and above all...informative.

As someone relatively new to reloading, I ask: How do you determine what your rifle likes?

On the surface, this question seems easy to answer. You reload and shoot different charges, bullets, primers, and perhaps even brass, until you get the results you want. My question is aimed at those who have developed a method to their madness. I am intersested in understanding the process.

I shoot a lot of paper (aluminum cans, 20oz. drink bottles, bowling pins) at ranges from 100 - 300 meters. I am satisfied when I hit a 12oz. aluminum can at 300m. However, I like my holes to touch at 100m (notice I said I "like" my holes to touch at 100m, reality is often quite different). I am smart enough (read old enough) to know that what I own is probably more accurate than my abilities profess. My aspirations for competative shooting are more introspective. I want to do better today than I did yesterday or last week. I like competing with others as a means to pick their brains and understand their techniques.

I am also interested in your choices of equipment for determining what your rifle "likes". Do you use a bench rest, or a Mk1 sandbag? How does a chronograph play into your processes? How do you determine if it is you, or the rifle?

As always, I thank you for your contribution to my education.

RK

 

[danweasel]

Thread bookmarked. Good post sir,

Dan

 

[ants]

Practice, m'boy, practice.

A young man carrying a tuba down the street stopped an older man for directions.

"Sir, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?"

"Practice, m'boy. Practice!"

Of course, I don't just mean practice at the range, I mean practice at the bench and at the books.

A few humble suggestions might be:

Hone your skills as a shooter. If you can't control your breathing, trigger, sight alignment, sight picture, follow through, etc., you won't be able to develop the best load for your rifle. You are the biggest variable, not the rifle and ammo.

Then, pay attention to every resource you can find. The better you can listen and read, the more you will learn.

Think before making purchases. Top quality components generally work better than marginal components.

Be methodical. Develop an organized strategy and log everything. Haphazard experimentation is fun, but not methodical.


I know these suggestions are not telling you exactly what to do, but I hope that the long run will bear out the lessons contained therein.

 

[RKRNC]

Top quality components generally work better than marginal components.

How do you determine "quality"?

I teach Furniture and Cabinet Making to HS students. This is an area that I struggle with on a daily basis (well, minus the Summers): How to teach quality workmanship. I am not trying to be a devils advocate (or a smart-tail), I am "picking your brain".

I google different components. I am weary of the marketers catch-phrases. "They" are all the best. I know I will pay for quality. Any suggestions?

Thanks for being so supportive.

RK

 

[Shoney]

Ants is right on target.

After many years of "playing" with different powders and bullets, you can narrow down the field from past experience before you start loading. No matter how much experience you have, you get an occasional curve ball. Good and bad.

Ya just have to put in the time. Easy as that.

 

[jpwilly]

Laupa brass, Federal Match Primers, Sierra Match King bullets, and good powders like Varget etc. Of course you'll need dies etc.

Also prepping brass i.e. checking for run-out, turning case necks, bullet seating depth, full length sizing etc etc will make better ammo. One of the biggest reasons to do this is consistent case neck tension on the bullet. Most bench rest shooters/re loaders seat the bullets to the lands (no jump) but you have to watch for pressure.

If your shooting skills, like mine, aren't Match Master Super Professional trigger puller than you can cheat and use a sled. If your reloading skills, again like mine, aren't the best...pick up some Federal Gold Medal Match. Most rifles will shoot that ammo very well. Like you I'm trying to improve but have no illusions (nor the time and money) to be the best.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Without going into pages of typing that would probably put most of us to sleep I will tell you this. I've found two very important parts to reloading that will improve all ammo that are very easy to do. First, use a quality primer of the correct type and stick with that primer. Second, find a powder in the correct burn rate range that will get as close to filling the case to 100% as you can without exceeding SAAMI pressure limits. Once you do that you will be well on your way to much more accurate ammo. (IMO of course)

 

[Walkalong]

Start out simple. Don't fool with neck sizing, checking runout, neck turning, etc. Those things have merit but won't make an inaccurate load a good one. Full length size good brass. (Lapua is hard to beat. Then you will know it isn't a brass problem) The Federal match primers are very good, and won't be the problem if the load does not shoot well.

Then pick a couple of powders known to work well with your caliber. Then start trying different bullets. Besides the shooter, and the quality of the action/barrel, the bullet makes the biggest difference IMHO. Your rifle will tell you which bullet it likes. It will show on paper. It will consistently group better and give more hits than other bullets. Then you can tweak the powder charge to fine tune a tad more. As you work up the load using more and more powder, there will be more than one "sweet spot". Choose the one with the most velocity within safe pressures. After that it takes a lot of work for minimal gain. (IMHO of course)

Yes, I shoot off a bench to test loads. Most do, but some world class riflemen don't. (That's not us, by the way, world class I mean. )

 

[MCMXI]

You reload and shoot different charges, bullets, primers, and perhaps even brass, until you get the results you want. My question is aimed at those who have developed a method to their madness. I am intersested in understanding the process.

I would suggest that you read all of the information HERE regarding what I consider to be the best method for figuring out "what your rifle likes".

Have you ever wondered why so many world record groups (or even groups shot by members here), small as they may be, are rarely in the center of the target i.e. at the point of aim (POA)? Personally, I'd much rather work up a load that shoots POA +/- 0.5 MOA in ANY conditions i.e. density altitude, rather than one that groups 0.25 MOA but could be anywhere on the target. The latter type of loads are ok for benchrest shooters that win medals for the smallest group, but I want to hit what I'm aiming at regardless of the time of year, time of day, temperature, altitude or atmospheric pressure. This is where the OCW method (or the ladder method) excels. I've never used the ladder method but I've read through the procedure, and with the proper interpretation of the data, I'm confident that it'd work too. My experience with the OCW method has been very positive and I've been able to get excellent results with all of my rifles.

The more you can remove yourself from the data collection process the better. A front rest and rear bag can go a long way towards that. Shooting a "round-robin" system (explained in the OCW method) can help to remove or distribute atmospheric, rifle and fatigue induced errors.

A chronograph is definitely a useful tool to have for two main reasons. Comparing velocities of your loads to published load data can give you another point of reference in determining (by inference) the pressures that you may be generating. The other benefit is that you can enter your MV values into a ballistic program so that you won't waste time or ammunition getting on target at longer ranges. If you're developing a load for hunting, you'll be able to calculate the bullet energy at various distances in addition to being able to calculate bullet drop and maximum point blank range. It amazes me how many people show up at our matches with no idea as to the velocity of their loads, or the necessary scope adjustments required to hit the target at 300 or 600 yards. With a chronograph, this stuff becomes trivial and your first shot at 600 yards will be in the 9 ring at least.

 

[rcmodel]

The single very most importent item is the bullet.
Start out with a known high quality bullet, and the other stuff doesn't matter much, within reason.

Start with a good match or varmint bullet from Speer, Sierra, Hornady, or Nosler, and just about any brand of case and primer will shoot very well with several different powders.

Pick a powder based on the type you want to fool with (stick or ball) and one that appears to offer good performance for your caliber in more then one load manual.
Some manuals, Lyman for instance, even tell you what powder gave the best accuracy during testing with each bullet.
That would be a good starting point.

Then in todays world, buy whatever kind of powder you can find in stock!
rc

 

[Walkalong]

The latter type of loads are ok for benchrest shooters that win medals for the smallest group, but I want to hit what I'm aiming at regardless of the time of year, time of day, temperature, altitude or atmospheric pressure

I can tweak my scope and get my group anywhere on the target I want, but I don't want to shoot out my aiming point.

My load will shoot to the exact same POI each time out except for wind conditions. No load can avoid that. Conditions affect POI vs POA, no way around it.

The single very most importent item is the bullet.

Can't argue with that, and I basically said the same thing in a different way, try different bullets.

 

[MCMXI]

I can tweak my scope and get my group anywhere on the target I want, but I don't want to shoot out my aiming point.

Of course you can .... that's what you benchrest shooters always say but somehow you always end up way off center . So why do you have to be 1 MOA or more from your point of aim? And I very much doubt you'd "shoot out your aiming point" at 300, 500, 600, 800 or 1000 yards. Look at Ken's target (the second link) ... there' no way he'd shoot out his aiming point with 10 shots.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.co...ets-new-ibs-1000-yard-heavy-gun-world-record/

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/05/05/ken-brucklacher-sets-1000-yard-score-record-100-8x/

 

[MCMXI]

My load will shoot to the exact same POI each time out except for wind conditions. No load can avoid that. Conditions affect POI vs POA, no way around it.

The only condition that has a significant affect on an OCW load is wind. Also, if your load shoots as you say, then EVERY group you shoot should be approximately at the same vertical position on the target (level with the X ring) and will deviate horizontally due to wind. If your groups are off vertically as well (such as Joel's world record group above), and you're shooting the same load, then your load is sensitive to atmospheric conditions since bullet drop is a function of air density which is a function of altitude, air temperature and atmospheric pressure.

Also, why wouldn't you want to put all of your shots in the X-ring? That's still the ultimate goal of all forms of target shooting and yet it RARELY occurs in benchrest shooting, and I'm not taking 100 or 200 yard matches. My contention is that the reason for this has nothing to do with the wind, it's because your loads are developed for the smallest group and not for consistent POA/POI. Often, those two objectives don't go hand in hand. This is the point I wanted to make to the OP ... you have to decide on what you want out of a particular load. A hunter and a benchrest shooter may have different needs and objectives.

Walkalong, for the record, I have the utmost respect for the sport of benchrest shooting and Ken's world record is nothing short of amazing. You guys show the rest of us what's possible. Don't tell Bart I said that though ...

 

[rcmodel]

it's because your loads are developed for the smallest group and not for consistent POA/POI.

But, they are one and the same.
And you can't have one without the other.

Where the group lands on paper is entirely a matter of where the scope is adjusted to put it on the paper.

But whatever load gives the best groups is also giving the most consistent POI with the same POA.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

Also, why wouldn't you want to put all of your shots in the X-ring?

Again, because I don't want to shoot out my aiming point, and at 100 and 200 it is easily done. I can aim at any part of a 6mm bullet hole I want with a 36 X scope equipped with a fine cross hair or fine cross hair with an 1/8 MOA dot, which is what I use. Have you ever looked at a target through a 36 X scope? I don't want to have to guess where my original aiming point went, especially if I want to tweak my aim a hair. I might shoot in a wind primarily quartering in left to right one group, a wind primarily quartering away right to left the next group, and a dead straight away wind the next, although we like to find the same condition every time when it's possible. The flag in front of my bench might be showing left to right, while the flag at 25 to 30 yards might be almost still, while the one at 75 is right to left, and the one at 150 is blowing straight in, not to mention the one at 175. We don't have time to keep changing our scope to hit the "X" and we don't care, because our game is about pure precision and how small a group can be shot. The High Power guys have to worry about X's, not us.

As you can see, I may shoot 5 groups and none have the same exact POI, but it is not important.

My point is that an accurate load is an accurate load, period. It is the shooter who has to get everything set up right so they have a chance of putting a bullet where they want when they have to. I know where my rifle will hit in a dead calm at 100 or 200 yards, which will, for me, be just above my aiming point, but after the wind picks up even a hair, that goes out the window. If you have not shot over wind flags it can be a real eye opener. I know it was for me.



PS:
rcmodel was typing while I was. I agree with his post. AC

 

[Canuck-IL]

I am weary of the marketers catch-phrases. "They" are all the best. I know I will pay for quality. Any suggestions?

'They' are all the best - and all pistol barrels manufactured in the last 5 years seem to be "match quality."

Simplest approach I'm aware of is to frequent matches and practice sessions and pick the brains of the shooters. Most are incredibly generous with advice, barrel and action choices, load recipes, component recommendations, etc. I've also garnered a lot of great info that has saved a ton of time from the specialty forums. National Match, Long-Range, 6mmBR, the Bullseye forum (list serve) and others of that ilk. In a relatively short amount of time one can narrow the components and loads list to the 'known' good, the promising but not yet thoroughly proven and the 'don't waste your time' subsets.

With a suitable gun, once you're in the right general area with loads, practice time will do more for your groups that hours at the loading bench trying to tease out the last tenth of an MOA...more cost efficient too!
/Bryan

 

[something vague]

Exactly as RCmodel and Walkalong said it. Benchresters could shoot the bullseye of a target out all day long. If all their bullets are in a tight 1/4MOA pattern then why wouldn't they be able to move their scope to make that 1/4MOA pattern in the bullseye? Again, it is a function of the scope not the load, rifle, or shooter. They aren't trying to send down 3 shots adjust the scope and send more down until they're hitting bullseye, that's not the goal. Accuracy is ultimatly a function of how tight your groups are, and if you want to bring that accuracy out in the hunting field then you adjust the scope to match POA into POI.

 

[Walkalong]

Simplest approach I'm aware of is to frequent matches and practice sessions and pick the brains of the shooters. Most are incredibly generous with advice, barrel and action choices, load recipes, component recommendations, etc.

Absolutely.

 

[MCMXI]

But, they are one and the same.
And you can't have one without the other.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that. Where a bullet impacts the target (once it leaves the barrel) is a function of velocity and change in velocity which are functions of air density (and wind). If velocity is changing as a function of atmospheric conditions, then the relationship between POA and POI are also changing. A load that is NOT pressure (atmospheric) sensitive will have a much more consistent POA and POI relationship.

If you're objective is to hit MOA targets from 100 yards to 1000 yards, a .25 MOA group 2 MOA away from the center of the target is a miss. Benchrest shooters may get all excited over that but an F-Class shooter won't. I work up my loads to hit a 1 MOA target under ALL atmospheric conditions but these loads don't necessarily result in the tightest groups.

 

[MCMXI]

Benchresters could shoot the bullseye of a target out all day long. If all their bullets are in a tight 1/4MOA pattern then why wouldn't they be able to move their scope to make that 1/4MOA pattern in the bullseye?

Absolute baloney!! If it were true, then all of the benchrest world records would be in the X-ring but they're not. It's rare to see a benchrest world record even close to the X-ring.

Accuracy is ultimatly a function of how tight your groups are, and if you want to bring that accuracy out in the hunting field then you adjust the scope to match POA into POI.

NO .. PRECISION is a measurement of how tight your groups are!! ACCURACY is a measurement of how close your group center is to the point of aim. I could give a RAT'S ASS about precision ... in the real world it's highly overrated!!

Believe it not, there are some folks that actually want to hit what they're aiming at.

 

[Walkalong]

I assure you it is not absolute baloney 1858. I promise you.


Here are two targets I saved as a reminder to myself to give 100% concentration on every shot. They were shot in the same match, with one being in the second relay and one on the third relay.

A good group, but then a classic 4 and 1 (4 shots in and 1 shot out-real head bangers:banghead The kind of group that loses matches. Yes, one bad shot in 25 can lose it for you. So, my two targets as a reminder to myself of what to do, and what can happen. I still shake my head at the 4 and 1 group. Yes, I have some gray hair. I have also eaten a lot of humble pie at matches, goes with the territory. The big dogs love to serve it fresh.

The first group was shot in a condition that was blowing basically left to right and a hair in. The second group was shot in a condition blowing mostly away. The shot out of the group could have been me, or just a flip of a wind flags tail at the moment I fired. (Good reason to learn to shoot with both eyes open)

Again, remember, it is rare that all the flags are blowing in the same direction for any length of time. @#@##@ wind flags.....

It is surprising to the uninitiated how little a difference in wind can make such a big difference on target.

NO .. PRECISION is a measurement of how tight your groups are!! ACCURACY is a measurement of how close your group center is to the point of aim.

I disagree.

 

[MCMXI]

Walkalong, you can find numerous definitions of the difference between accuracy and precision ... here's one.

Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

In the fields of science, engineering, industry and statistics, accuracy is the degree of conformity of a measured or calculated quantity to its actual (true) value [the POA]. Accuracy is closely related to precision, also called reproducibility or repeatability, the degree to which further measurements or calculations show the same or similar results [group size].

*comments in [] added by me for clarification.

Also, I don't understand what point you're trying to make with your two targets. They were shot on the same day under the same density altitude conditions and the wind shifted the average POI of the group ... so what, that isn't the issue. Show me other groups shot with the SAME load on DIFFERENT days with DIFFERENT density altitude values with no scope adjustment and then we'll talk. Also, show some targets shot at 600 yards or further where load development for different density altitude conditions REALLY comes into play.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make with your two targets. They were shot on the same day under the same density altitude conditions and the wind shifted the average POI of the group ... so what, that isn't the issue.

Yes it is.

I don't understand why you don't understand why the POI changes, and I don't care what Wikipedia says, an accurate load is an accurate load. What ever load you have that is going to hit where you want at one particular time will also change PIO when conditions change.

Show me other groups shot with the SAME load on DIFFERENT days with DIFFERENT density altitude values with no scope adjustment and then we'll talk.

If you come up with a load that always shoots to the same POI, I bet every High Power shooter in the world will be beating your door down to get it.

I guess I'll just leave it at that. You may have the last word on it.

 

[Tim the student]

1858, I share your definitions.

Anyways, I basically do what Walkalong does to find a load (post #8). Start with everything equal as much as I can (same lot primers, same lot bullets, same brass weight, same OAL, same weight brass sized the same amount of times, bore cleaning on the range if I'm feeling anal that day) and work my way from min charge up. The amount of powder I vary depends on the cartridge - .270, I might jump .8 or one grain till I get close, .223 I may jump up only .2-.5 grains till I get close. Once I get close on the charge, I just refine it (and just jump .1 grain). Once that gets on, I may or may not adjust the jump to the lands. Usually I do not, as I'm not a benchrester, and I can get groups that satisfy me.

Thats about all I'm willing to do now I think. I think that much more would take the fun out of handloading for me and turn it into work.

 

[243winxb]

The Process

My question is aimed at those who have developed a method to their madness. I am intersested in understanding the process.

It starts here.This will give you an idea i think. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_48/ai_83483904/

choices of equipment for determining what your rifle "likes".

Basic benchrest, front rest, adjustable, sandbag. Rear-rabbit ear sand bag. Wind flags, homemade is fine.The targets will tell you what works.

How do you determine if it is you, or the rifle?

With a 36X scope, when the shot breaks, you know where the cross hairs are, if your paying attention. How the recoil felt, where the cross hairs are after recoil, you just know if its you. The wind can always get the best of shooters. But the pressure shot is the one to look out for. The group has 4 bullet holes cutting each other, shot #5 is the pressure shot, heart rate goes up, you tighten up on the gun, more cheek pressure, OOPs blew that group. Score or Group shooting , dont mattter, all take accuracy.