How to do a bkgrnd check on FTF buyer??

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MinnMooney

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I just read the thread titled "Bill of Sale???? by huntinggamo and it brought up a troubling question that I have whenever I sell a gun FTF.

I have the buyer sign a bill of sale very similar to some that were shown in the thread - Name of buyer, License # & state of residency, make/model/ser.no. of the gun, date, oath the the buyer is legal to own this gun - BUT......... I would feel much better knowing that they are legal rather than a true/untrue oath that they are. I realize that I'm probably covered from prosecution by getting the bill o' sale but I would rather be ethically covered as well.

My question : Is there a websight or agency where I'd be able to check on any criminal background without it going "on the record"?

I don't trust the criminal background check system in that I believe there is the possibility that they really do keep all of this info on some secret file. I know, I know, "Boy, is he paranoid or what?" I know that the gov't never lies or even stretches the truth but I still have these lingering doubts.
 
I'm sorry, but why would you even consider such an intrusive, statist action? This borders on the strange/surreal...I own property in both WI & MN, you have absolutely no obligation to run a background check on a private party sale! Nothing, and I mean nothing, creeps me out more then the current trend raging across America of investigating everybody you know for thirty-bucks....
 
I would stick to the standard bill of sale and signature form. If you START to look into someone's background, you are taking on a duty to do so without NEGLIGENCE. It's a peculiar doctrine known as assumed duty. And if you miss something in your check, you may invite civil liability where there was none before. Some states have immunity statutes to protect sellers, but most do not. So unless you can do the search right, don't try to do it.

If you're really worried about it, just sell by consignment.
 
ease Up!!!

We shouldn't criticize or demean another member for being of a different opinion on a subject. While there is no way for a non-dealer I laud his wanting to be extra careful. There are personal search engines if you want to pay.
 
Why not just follow the CONSTITUITION and the LAW and sell to anyone who wants to buy the gun and whom you believe in your own best judgement is not prohibited from owning the firearm? Use your gut instincts and follow the law. What a unique concept!!

All the bills of sale in the world won't help you if you indeed get caught up in some kind of investigation. But there's no need for that to happen anyway-- if you are questioned about a subsequent owner's actions, simply say you sold the gun in question on some earlier date and didn't get the buyer's name, unless your own state law requires it. Federal law sure doesn't. You will be fine there. Even if you get a bill of sale, if the buyer is prohibited, you MIGHT be asked why you sold it to him. All you need to say is you didn't have any reason to believe he was prohibited from owning it. Did you??
 
MinnMooney said:
My question : Is there a websight or agency where I'd be able to check on any criminal background without it going "on the record"?
Click to expand...

Where I am from they are called FFLs. :D

If you are that concerned about it, do the transfer through an FFL or only sell to a Concealed Pistol License holder. Personally, as a buyer, I would walk away from the deal, but we are all free to make our own choices.

There is a gun range about 2 miles from where I live. I refused to join because they wanted to do their own background check (at the new member's expense) on an individual who possessed an in-state Concealed Pistol License and who was a military officer with a military firearms issuance card and Top Secret security clearance. (That was me, BTW.) Instead I joined the gun range 25 miles away because all they required was a safety indoctrination.
 
Back when we could sell FTF, I usually sold to a buddy or a friend of a friend. I would have had no problem selling to a stranger with just a quick peak at a drivers license. A bill of sale is sort of weak as a defense against any liability. I think most lawyers would have a lot of fun tearing a hand written BOS apart from a legal standpoint. Most of the guys buying guns are just regular folks.

Thanks, Russ

NavyLT,
You may have been insulted by having your background checked but your military ID and your TS clearance really doesn't mean that much. How would you expect a private party to check your clearance and how does that prove you weren't arrested last night? A background check is obsolete the second after it's completed. I'm sure you could withstand careful scrutiny but I would have a problem with the being charged a fee just like you did.
 
I would stick to the standard bill of sale and signature form. If you START to look into someone's background, you are taking on a duty to do so without NEGLIGENCE. It's a peculiar doctrine known as assumed duty. And if you miss something in your check, you may invite civil liability where there was none before. Some states have immunity statutes to protect sellers, but most do not. So unless you can do the search right, don't try to do it.
Click to expand...

+1 for Cosmoline. I would add that you will be establishing a standard of practice, and deviating from it on future transactions can create liability. If liability is your concern, you are actually creating more of it. As for wanting to not sell to a potential irresponsible buyer, do you also worry about all of the strangers on either side of you at the range? The shoppers at the gun counter? Your gun-owning neighbors?

Once it leaves your control, you are in NO WAY liable for the use of that weapon. I have sold many cars FTF -- I have yet to have the new owner submit to a breath-a-lizer, and that car is FAR more likely to cause harm through irresponsible use.
 
written by DenaliPark (post #4) :
I'm sorry, but why would you even consider such an intrusive, statist action? This borders on the strange/surreal...
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Wow. :what: Chill out, bro. Accusing me of statism? I certainly do NOT believe in "extensive power to the state". Please re-read my statement that I DO NOT want the state or feds to have any record of the sale. I wanted to do a check on the person because I think of myself as a responsible gun owner and want to be reasonably sure that the buyer isn't a felon or convicted wife/child beater.

On the other hand................
"Thank you" Cosmoline, for the thoughtful, useful and accurate advise. I really don't want to take on any unnecessary risk so my buyer/seller contract is all that I'll be doing in the future - just as I've done in the past.
 
Wow, your buyers are trusting you to not sell them a damaged or stolen gun, and then you accuse them of being shady?

How about extending some benefit of the doubt to your fellow citizens?
 
Maybe you live in a protected little fantasy world were every gun owner or wanna be gun owner are nice law abiding people but you're flat out wrong.
For instance, I had an FTF on an SKS, buyer arrives and we start just shooting the breeze. He handles the gun, likes it, and spontaneously adds: "Yeah I got out like 3 years ago and I'm trying to have my dope conviction expunged".

....yeah, OK. Good luck with that. I'm outta here.

Given the propensity to, 1) file a lawsuit, or 2) be charged with providing a weapon to a felon or aiding in the commission of a crime, I guess you can go right on believing in the good of your fellow man. Me, I prefer to stay out of prison.
 
I am not responsible for the actions of criminals. I wouldn't sell to the dirtbag you encountered, but I'm not about to make my default assumption one of guilt.

How much benefit of the doubt do you expect and demand every day? Can you not extend a reasonable measure to others? Or shall we all just only own objects when the State tells us we may?
 
"Yeah I got out like 3 years ago and I'm trying to have my dope conviction expunged".

....yeah, OK. Good luck with that. I'm outta here.
Click to expand...

Purchasing a firearm FROM a prohibited person is not illegal.
 
MinnMooney said:
written by DenaliPark (post #4) :


Wow. :what: Chill out, bro. Accusing me of statism? I certainly do NOT believe in "extensive power to the state". Please re-read my statement that I DO NOT want the state or feds to have any record of the sale. I wanted to do a check on the person because I think of myself as a responsible gun owner and want to be reasonably sure that the buyer isn't a felon or convicted wife/child beater.

On the other hand................
"Thank you" Cosmoline, for the thoughtful, useful and accurate advise. I really don't want to take on any unnecessary risk so my buyer/seller contract is all that I'll be doing in the future - just as I've done in the past.
Click to expand...
Come on, you chill out and re-read my post, I said "statist action!" If you're so touchy on the subject of statism then why even pursue the topic? If you're so concerned with the public safety, just keep your guns to yourself, or have a shop sell them for you, either way, it's creepy to hear from private owners such as yourself, about how they wish to run background investigations on a private sale!

To be perfectly honest, whether intentioned or not, I find it un-American(and no, I'm not calling YOU un-American, just the idea)to be running background checks on other American's for conducting routine commerce. It's right out of a Sarah Brady uber mega-super-massive fantasy!

Like I said, I OWN property in both MN & WI, you have absolutely no obligation to conduct a background investigation during the course of a private party sale, though you may soon, if they ever ram through the so-called "gun show loophole" legislation which is the ANTI-GUNNERS "anti-gun dream bill" on steroids, and is designed to do just that, force American's to scrutinize each other for the state on pain of imprisonment...
 
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This thread has really gotten out of hand by a few who wish to name-call and put labels on me that are totally out of thin air.

If anyone cares to reread the original post, I asked for any website where I could find out if the potential buyer has a criminal record. I do NOT want to sell a gun to a felon or wife beater. Is it legal for me to sell to someone who is one of those things as long as I keep my head in the sand and make absolutely no attempt to find out? Of course. Am I legally responsible for what that felon does with the gun that I sold him? Probably not. Do I have any moral responsibility? this is, evidently, where many of us differ. I feel that I do. That's why I wish to see if there is any record on the prospective buyer.

Please, let's read the original posts and try to help rather than become judgemental and adolecent.
 
Purchasing a firearm FROM a prohibited person is not illegal.
Click to expand...

If you're just throwing that in conversation, fine, but I didn't say that, since you bothered to quote me. I was the SELLER, dope head felon dirtbag was the buyer.
 
Your intentions are honorable.
In addition to the above sites you can access your state records at a .gov site.

Just me, but I use a FFL. total cost 27 bucks.
 
Easy, gang - let's not wind up with the thread being locked and folks getting in dutch.

The question has been asked and answered. Piling on with 'why would you want to do that?' is a question for a different thread, and frankly it's been done to death anyway. Those that believe in background checks as a positive means of preventing future crimes will continue to do so, and those that do not believe such things will continue to hold to their position as well.

I think that Cosmo nailed the most reasonable answer; attempting to do background checks as an individual is simply not legally prudent. If you have a concern that you may be selling to a prohibited person - use an FFL and let 'the system' carry the legal burden.
 
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