How traceable are bullets?

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The recovered bullet doesn't have to be in perfect condition. I've had bullets matched recovered from trees, after going thru wall board and imbedding into 2X4s, after going thru car bodies and interiors. As long as the rifling is completely deformed it can usually be a viable specimen. It does take a whole lot of material.
I think you ment "...the rifling isn't completely deformed..." and "It doesn't take a whole lot of material, right? Makes more sense.

I'm sure you're right. Can you explain more completely how the points of identification work, though? Certainly, two bullets fired from the same gun into test media will not look identical, so how is the "match" made? What percentage of similar markings determines a "hit"?
Or, rather, what degree of certainty will you offer on a given match? Do you only identify a "match" if there's a 95% correlation? Or 50%? 25%?

One of the internet falacies being spread was bullets from Glocks can't be traced to a specific firearm because of the Glock's polygon bore. Not so. Any metal on metal transfer is enough. ... The polygon bore "theory" is the same as the old story of Glocks can't be seen on airport xray machines.
Wait a minute, I didn't say Glocks couldn't be ID'd this way. I said it would make it harder, not having distinct rifling impressions. If you say that that isn't the case at all, I'll bow to your experience on the matter.

-Sam
 
I've not heard of many folks getting shot these days with unjacketed lead ammo...
And you know that because of how exactly?
Actually it's not that uncommon to find all lead bullets in a shooting. There are plenty of all lead ammo being sold and used.

how would knowing that one gun fired the kind of bullet (jacketed) that was used in a crime (or even the brand of bullet) make for a good prosecution, when there's only a handful of manufacturers and probably 7 out of any 10 guns tested would have copper fouling from either one of them you'd pick?
It's all about building a case. Real world cases are nothing like what you see on TV. If we built our cases like you see on TV there would be a whole lot of guilty people walking free.

I want to see a real-world example of a forensics lab using mass spectrometry to link a bullet to a specific manufacturer by alloy composition.
Sure it can be done. It's no different than taking a soil sample, analyzing the composition, then determining where it came from. Same with lead. There are impurities specific to areas and compositions specific to manufacturers. You're right, it's not like on TV so don't believe everything the news reports as not being possible. When the news reported several years ago that bullets couldn't be linked to a manufacturer the news didn't fully report the story or report it accurately. You've got reporters who don't understand what's involved. What a surprise the news got it wrong. What the real story involved was just testing the lead from a bullet and saying the lead came from such and such maker. However, what the news didn't report was it is possible to compare a same to a known sample. That's simple science which is done everyday in labs all over the world.
 
Can you explain more completely how the points of identification work, though? Certainly, two bullets fired from the same gun into test media will not look identical, so how is the "match" made? What percentage of similar markings determines a "hit"?
Or, rather, what degree of certainty will you offer on a given match? Do you only identify a "match" if there's a 95% correlation? Or 50%? 25%?
You are correct on my typing errors.
It's like anything. The more verifiable points the better. There is nothing that says if we only get 24% that isn't not useable but if we get 25% it is valid. Nothing is 100% nor is it required to be. I know on TV court cases they make every piece of evidence 100% conclusive. It's not. It's about building a case.

I said it would make it harder, not having distinct rifling impressions.
All the Glock polygon rifling does is tell us it's polygon rifling. Glock isn't the only firearm with polygon rifling. It doesn't make it any more difficult. It's still metal on metal transfer. The sharp groove edges isn't what's important for striations. When looking for metal on metal transfer it's the marks left. The rifling only tells us what kind of rifling, number of grooves, twist rate, etc. Comparing striations is just metal on metal contact and rifling doesn't enter into it. Screwdrivers and prybars don't have rifling and those are easy to match. It's sort of like bite marks which are a form of tool marks. Same kind of process. As teeth wear and are chipped the impressions won't be identical but still basic marks are left which can be matched.
 
And you know that because of how exactly?
Actually it's not that uncommon to find all lead bullets in a shooting. There are plenty of all lead ammo being sold and used.
If that's what you see in the business, then I can't argue the point. Sure isn't easy to find much in stores, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. (And I was forgetting how much rimfire ammo is sold unjacketed. Plenty of homicide with .22s from what I've read.)

It's all about building a case. Real world cases are nothing like what you see on TV. If we built our cases like you see on TV there would be a whole lot of guilty people walking free.
You're saying it's another card in the deck, or the accumulated "preponderance of evidence?" I can see that. Not conclusive in itself, but adding to the heap. O.k.

Sure it can be done. It's no different than taking a soil sample, analyzing the composition, then determining where it came from. Same with lead. There are impurities specific to areas and compositions specific to manufacturers.... it is possible to compare a same to a known sample.
Ah, well now we're in total agreement. If you have a known sample of the manufaturer's output (by lot number/batch?) you could match a certain bullet to that batch. Much like matching a recovered bullet's rifling imprint to a suspect's gun -- which you have on hand and can take a sample bullet from.

But are you saying there's an archive of bullet alloys and an investigator can take a recovered bullet, test a sample of it, and look up who made it? Not sure that's realistic.

-Sam
 
But are you saying there's an archive of bullet alloys and an investigator can take a recovered bullet, test a sample of it, and look up who made it? Not sure that's realistic.
Nope, didn't say that. What can happen is say a bullet is recovered, unknown make. The construction and contents are analyzed. We go to a company, let's say Federal. Federal says yeah, they mixed so much % lead and % tin at such and such temps. They may or may not still have bullets from that same batch which can be compared. We do the same with paint, clothing materials, shoes, tires, etc.
 
I personally think hte whole idea of matching up a bullet to a particular barrel would be pretty difficult.

Barrels of rifles, pistols, and revolvers are made by a machine using the same exact dimensions and specifications.

Even if you could "match" a particular round to a particular barrel what if the person shoots the gun again many times? Cleaning the barrel would introduce new scratches and wear marks.
 
Barrel
Extractor
Ejector
Firing Pin

All leave a mark, put all of this together and it's a pretty good science :)
 
I personally think hte whole idea of matching up a bullet to a particular barrel would be pretty difficult.
What you think and what reality is are obviously quite different in this regard.
 
Of course, if you use THESE, there will be no rifling marks.....
There will be on the sabot. If used in a crime those will be left somewhere within the crime scene.
 
That bullet will travel a LOT farther than the sabot will.
That's right, but it's still all crime scene. Don't think just the point of impact is crime scene and that's the only place searches are conducted.
 
If Rifleing marks are present on what had been a Paper Patched Bullet...then a Forensic's Lab technition can desribe the Rifleing Marks...direction of twist...Bullet weight, composition if budget allows, size/diameter/length...as far as these are in the recovered Bullet, anyway.


For any recovered Bullet...I think it is exceedingly rare that any pronounement can be made as for what make or model Arm it came from.
 
One other thing I didn't see mentioned here is that many barrels are made by automated processes that create something almost exactly the same. Even when barrel A is different than barrel B, C or D, it may be a near match to barrel Y. When making thousands of automated barrels many of them will be very close. Through use, cleaning, polishing and other wear they will overlap many times throughout their lifespan.

This is more true on mass produced barrels that are very close than those made by smaller scale processes.
So your gun can ballistically match the gun of some thug someplace in the nation who just commited a crime. A year from now after firing several thousand shots, being polished and cleaned numerous times, they may have totally different marks and the same gun could overlap with the ballistic "print" of another similar model gun.

Prosecutors and "expert witnesses" many of whom make a living by being such "experts" will often discredit or deny that fact.


In reality the lie of the effectiveness is not as obvious or important because there is only a small percentage of guns being used in crimes. So even if a criminal's gun is giving a ballistic "fingerprint" that would match say 10 other guns in the nation, it is very unlikely those other 10 or their owners will even be a part of the investigation. Without those other 10 in the database nobody will ever know their guns were even matches as well.


If you were to take 10,000 glocks with polygonal rifling that is almost exactly the same from gun to gun, all in the same caliber, fire 10,000 rounds from each mixing them all together, then use a sample round to try to figure out which round came from which gun it would be very inaccurate.
A couple of the guns may have unique defects or marks that made it easier but even the ballistic print of the firearms themselves would have slowly changed during the course of the 10,000 rounds. Meaning round number 5 would not even match round number 5,000 from the same gun on many, never mind figuring out which gun it came from.

Now if you took some hand crafted barrel, with unique rifling, the uniqueness of the barrel would allow the fired round to be identified as being fired from the gun better.

Closed tests with several different models of guns with low numbers of rounds and virtually no wear, cleaning, polishing changing of parts etc are often used to demonstrate the capability of such technology. Quite misleading.


All of these facts are a big reason a ballistic database fails. The print changes through use, it overlaps other firearms during the course of the firearm's lifetime, continuing the change, receive new scratches, lose metal, have parts replaced etc.
If the database only includes firearms involved in crimes it is still not accurate beyond a reasonable doubt, but it does give good investigative conclusions.
If it includes all firearms it would be worthless, except for registering all gun owners.
Additionally it leads to "fishing". It means that if you have a .44 Magnum and a guy in your county was just killed with a .44 Magnum from a similar model firearm (or firearm using a similar barrel and breech) you may end up on a list of potential suspects even though you have no other connection to the case. This is even more true if the caliber or barrel, breech is more unique.
If you actually happen to have any connection or possible connection to that individual its certainly going to happen.
People may need to come inspect your gun on a regular basis just to conclude whether it was yours used or not.
The bigger the database the more likely yours will actually match other guns in the database. Since the print changes over time what other guns it matches will also change over time.

A big reason for the support of such systems by antis does not require the system to work. If all guns are part of such a database then all guns are registered. Period. Whether the system is a complete and utter failure you still would have all the guns in it and their owners registered. Something that allows better successful implementation of future gun control legislation.
 
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Additionally it leads to "fishing". It means that if you have a .44 Magnum and a guy in your county was just killed with a .44 Magnum from a similar model firearm (or firearm using a similar barrel and breech) you may end up on a list of potential suspects even though you have no other connection to the case.

This is already true of the car you drive. Do you worry about it?
 
This is already true of the car you drive. Do you worry about it?

No, but at the moment there is no national (and only a few state) registries which would give government agents the ability to look up who owns guns or which guns you own. So there is little chance of you getting a knock on the door from an officer saying, "Someone was just shot accross town with a .44. Our records indicate that you own a .44. Show it to us." Most of us prefer to keep it that way.

-Sam
 
This is already true of the car you drive. Do you worry about it?

It is not true of the car you drive in the same way. If your car is involved in a hit and run there is damage. If your car was not then hopefully you won't happen to have damage from something else.

A gun will be the same whether it was used or not.
Further the license plate of your car does not change over time like the "ballistic fingerprint" of a gun does. Your license plate will not match those of others, changing and matching new people throughout the life of the car.
The license plate of the car will not be different from mile 5,000 to mile 10,000 to mile 50,000, randomly changing as you use it.

Your car is also not demonized, and there is not large numbers of dedicated antis attempting to legislate against your car or your possession of your car.

Etc etc etc
 
other than simply matching calibers?

To further stir up the pot, it isn't simple to figure out caliber unless casings are found at a crime scene. For example, how can you tell if a bullet is a .38spl, .357 magnum or 9mm luger? They all make the same sized hole and pretty much look the same after being fired. Could even be a .380 ACP.

This is why medical examiners have to weigh each recovered bullet (and fragments) to try and determine original bullet weight.
 
Additionaly it leads to "fishing". It means that if you have a .44 Magnum and a guy in your county was just killed with a .44 Magnum from a similar model firearm (or firearm using a similar barrel and breech) you may end up on a list of potential suspects even though you have no other connection to the case. This is even more true if the caliber or barrel, breech is more unique.

I'm sure we all remember this:

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=386344

If you own this pistol, we want you to let us shoot it. If you don't let us, we will make you let us.
 
It is not true of the car you drive in the same way. If your car is involved in a hit and run there is damage. If your car was not then hopefully you won't happen to have damage from something else.

I was thinking of a situation more like "the perp drove away in a red Camaro." There have been many cases where LE has run down all the owners of red Camaros (or whatever).

Of course, I agree about guns being demonized, while the danger of cars is taken for granted "because you need a car and you don't need a gun".
 
I was thinking of a situation more like "the perp drove away in a red Camaro." There have been many cases where LE has run down all the owners of red Camaros (or whatever).

Again, though, there is no physical way that the police can say, "let's go visit (uh, "run down?") all the owners of .44 Magnums." (In all but a very few jurisdictions) that information is not available to the government. Nor should it be.

-Sam
 
They match rifling marks by comparing two bullets - one found at the scene and a test round fired from a specific gun -- if they match then they know the same gun fired both bullets. I'm not aware of a rifling marks database that would let you "look up" what gun fired a given bullet. If there were such a database it'd be useless if the gun's owner ever changed barrels.

Or just ran a coat hanger through it a few times.
 
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