Hunting Rifle Dilemma

[itgoesboom]

Sorry if this is a little long winded.....

As mentioned in a few threads here and over in the hunting forum, I had my first hunt this last weekend. The hunt was for Elk, and I used my friends Browning .30-06 with a Bushnell Elite 3200 3-9X and a Harris bipod.

Now it is time for me to choose and get my own hunting rifle. My EBRs just wont cut it.

The setup I was using was just about perfect for where we started our hunt, which was a couple of clearcuts. We were looking for Elk feeding early in the morning. From the spot that we picked out on top of one ridge, we had a very good view of a clearcut below us, down a small valley, and to a hillside above that. Range to the hillside was probably a little over 300 yards. Would have been a fairly easy shot to anything on that hillside with the rifle I had.

If we had only hunted that clearcut, or others like it during the day, I would just go and buy a Remington SPS and put a Nikon or Leupold 3-9X on it, mount a bipod, and call it good.

But after that we started to hunt other areas, I had second thoughts on that idea.

We ended up tracking a few elk through some very thick brush and forests, where visibility was limited to under 50 yards, often times much less than that. Carrying a full sized rifle in those conditions was at times difficult, especially trying to keep the muzzle and bipod from catching things.

Other areas seemed to be inbetween those.

Also, in all honesty, the areas that I enjoyed hunting the most were in the deep forest while we were actively tracking the Elk and at one point, a bear (my friend had a Bear tag he was hoping to fill). And since we found lots of sign in these areas, we knew we were in the right type of area.

While I know that most any name brand rifle in a decent caliber will work, as long as I do my part, I was almost left with the feeling that 2 rifles would be the ideal setup. Unfortunatly, I can't afford that.

So here is the dilemma:

Do I get a full sized rifle, 3-9x40 scope, .30-06 and a bipod, which would be perfect for those open ranged clearcuts? Example would be either Remington SPS or BDL.

Or

Do I get a shorter, handier rifle, with a 2-7X scope, like the Remington model seven in .308, perfect for those denser and middle areas that I really enjoyed hunting?

Or

Do I try to come up with some sort of a compromise, like the Remington 673, scout scope, in 350 rem mag?

.308 has the advantage that its a caliber that I already stock, and there are some good loads from federal that exceed what Remington loads in .30-06 can do. (3000 FPE vs 2900FPE @ muzzle, 1929 FPE vs 1713 FPE @ 300 yards). So I am tempted to go that way.

.30-06 is obviously a classic cartridge that can take most anything in the lower 48.

350 rem mag has a lot of power, but ammo availability might be an issue.

I should probably mention that this will be mainly used for Deer and Elk, and I will probably try for a black bear at some point.

So what do you all think?

TIA.

I.G.B.

 

[middy]

Personally, I'd go for the light .308. It's more fun stalking than sitting and waiting, and every pound is heavy by the end of the day.

.30-06 is obviously a classic cartridge that can take most anything in the lower 48.

"lower 48" nothing, I wouldn't hesitate to use it for anything outside of Africa...

 

[belton-deer-hunter]

i would say if you liked hunting thick brush get the .308 it will make long shots too becasue if you are not comfterble your shots will be off and in all hunting making a clean kill is important

 

[KaceCoyote]

Dont forget stout loads optimized for shorter ranges. .45-70, .30-30, .35 rem and .444 marlin are all viable hunting rounds. They may not be the first to your mind, but they do deserve a consideration.

 

[itgoesboom]

Dont forget stout loads optimized for shorter ranges. .45-70, .30-30, .35 rem and .444 marlin are all viable hunting rounds. They may not be the first to your mind, but they do deserve a consideration.

KaceCoyote,

I have thought about those as well, but then I would really be sacrificing power at ranges >150 yards.

That does bring up an intresting question though:

Will the lighter rifle in .308 (either Model 7 or 673) have enough power for a shot right at 300 yards?

I.G.B.

 

[KaceCoyote]

KaceCoyote,

I have thought about those as well, but then I would really be sacrificing power at ranges >150 yards.

That does bring up an intresting question though:

Will the lighter rifle in .308 (either Model 7 or 673) have enough power for a shot right at 300 yards?

I.G.B.

Personally I would be comfortable with a .308 -and- a .45-70 dispite its rainbow like trajectory.

 

[one-shot-one]

+1

"Do I get a shorter, handier rifle, with a 2-7X scope, like the Remington model seven in .308."

i have never shot a modle seven but i have its forefather a modle 600 in .308
and would fell comfortable with 300 yard max shot because of its exceptional accuracy.

 

[kentucky_smith]

Had a model 7, never liked it.

winchester Model 70 featherweight in 30/06 ought to do the trick. Or .338 wm.

 

[sumpnz]

If you want compact but still plenty of power, look at the single shot Ruger #1. The #1B standard is about the same overall length as most hunting rifles, but has a 26" barrel. The #1A sporter has the same 22" barrel as most hunting rifles but is about 4" shorter in overall length. There's also one with a 20" barrel. Chances are you won't have much opportunity for a second shot (especially in the thick stuff anyway), and from what I've heard if you practice enough you can get almost as fast as a bolt action for that second shot.

 

[rbullom]

You may like the in tight spaces of hunting elk and deer in the trees but over time you'll find most of your oportunities for elk are 80yd to 400yd. The hear and they smell. The short time you have to identify bull or cow 4pt or spike doesn't provide many opportunties for this type of hunting. When those opportunties arrise the difference between the compact and the not so compact won't be significant in making the shot or not. Bigger issue is the weight of carrying a heavy gun up and down the mountains. The 3x9 is a good scope for multi-use for elk and deer here in Colorado. I went the route of a 2 x 7 on a 270 to a 1x4 on a 338 to a 4x16 on a 300 ultra for elk over the last 25 years. I've started my son on a 270 with a 3x9x40. To meet all your needs I would suggest the Tika T3 for a rifle. It's light weight, has a good Sako type trigger and 1" MOA out of the box accuracy. Caliber I would consider the 270 WSM, 7 WSM or the 300 WSM. Scope 3x9, 3.5x10 or a 4x16. The lower end of the spectrum is going to work fine if you get a big enough objective lense to get a large field of view. Don't get a bi-pod. Get some good stoney point shooting sticks. They are more versatile.

 

[itgoesboom]

You may like the in tight spaces of hunting elk and deer in the trees but over time you'll find most of your oportunities for elk are 80yd to 400yd. The hear and they smell.

I guess I wasn't real clear about that. The areas that I preferred where the inbetween areas, in the deep forest, where we were stalking, tracking, and trying to find the elk. In that area we had more visibility than when we were in the dense forest. That was actually a PIA.

I.G.B.

 

[mustanger98]

itgoesboom:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaceCoyote
Dont forget stout loads optimized for shorter ranges. .45-70, .30-30, .35 rem and .444 marlin are all viable hunting rounds. They may not be the first to your mind, but they do deserve a consideration.


KaceCoyote,

I have thought about those as well, but then I would really be sacrificing power at ranges >150 yards.

That does bring up an intresting question though:

Will the lighter rifle in .308 (either Model 7 or 673) have enough power for a shot right at 300 yards?

Okay, here's my opinion. 170gr .30-30's will do the job on an elk, but you have to punch his lungs from inside 150yds. .45-70 and .444 are known big game artillery, but if they're about alike, they kick like a mule and have high trajectories so you have to figure holdover/under. Now, after considering Jim Carmicheal's article on Point Blank Zero (PBZ), if you look at .30-30, it'll carry well enough to his the elk's vital zone at 261yds, but that's with a 150gr Silvertip and that's not what you want for elk. However, if you can figure the PBZ for a 150gr .308 in your choice of hunting loads, it may have the better trajectory for what you're wanting.

As to the Model 7 vs. whatever other heavier rifle, get what you like. But, as has been mentioned, consider the weight. Us hunters, in the field, we carry our rifles a lot more than we shoot 'em. I'd recommend the Model 7, or a Savage Model 11 (mine's .243 but it comes in .308 too), or a Model 70 Classic Compact in .308. You'll probably want a closer look at your target, or else I'd recommend mounting a good set of sights with aperture rear- group size will be about the same.

 

[Bigfoot]

How big do the Elk get in your area?

 

[CB900F]

Itgoesboom;

I've lived & hunted in Wyoming & Montana all my life. I've been doing it for a while now, possibly even a while & a half.

Take a good look at the Winchester model 70 classic featherweight in .30-06, put whichever scope on it you want. Lose the bipod. Get a good sling, not just a carrying strap.

Or, put more thought into your hunting & less gear.d

900F

 

[itgoesboom]

Itgoesboom;

I've lived & hunted in Wyoming & Montana all my life. I've been doing it for a while now, possibly even a while & a half.

Take a good look at the Winchester model 70 classic featherweight in .30-06, put whichever scope on it you want. Lose the bipod. Get a good sling, not just a carrying strap.

Or, put more thought into your hunting & less gear.d

900F

Ummm....Thats what this post over in the hunting section is for:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=161211

This post is in the Rifle section, so that's what this question is about.

I.G.B.

 

[rbernie]

Seems like I'm saying this a lot these days, but what about a 308 levergun (Savage 99, Win88)?

 

[MDHunter]

.30-06, with 2x7 Scope and NO Bipod

Just my two cents:

- The 06 has a wider range of loads available, which will help if you use the rifle for deer, elk, and bear;

- The 2x7 will work in thick areas (on 2x), as well as open areas (5-7x);

- I don't have a bipod on my rfiles, but have hunted with hunters who have them, and they strike me as being noisy (bumping into brush, etc), and a little cumbersome. You won't need them on close shots, and they may get in the way/spook the game by being noisy. Carry a set of shooting sticks or practice in various hunting positions, for the longer shots.

Good luck with your decision,

Michael

 

[browningguy]

Well it sounds like you need one of each. I've got a ruger 77RSI in .308 with a 1.5-4.5 scope, and it's a great stalking rifle. To be honest with the 4.5x at the upper end you should be able to make 300 yard shots on deer size game. My main hunting rifle wears a fixed 6x scope and I really don't see any problems with it (or a 2-7) at 300 yards.

 

[CB900F]

Itgoesboom;

I see my comment concerning the whatever a Winchester model 70 classic is, other than a rifle, wasn't germane. Sorry I bothered you.

900F

 

[pete f]

My elk rifle is a restocked pre 64 winchester model 70 in 300 mag. I load it with 180 ct failsafes. I have a 2x-7x leupold, in redfield mounts. I have found any long enough shots to require steadying I have had enough time to pull off my backpack and set the rifle on for the shot. I carry the Pre 64 even though there might be better guns because it has never let me down. the 300 mag has enough juice to kill Elk at any range I am likely to reach. I have shot Elk going away and broadside, shooting head-on the bullet hit the sternum and exited at the beginning of the hip. Broad side at 180 yards the bullet broke the near shoulder and shattered the far leg. That animal dropped on the spot and none other have gone more than a hundred yards. The 180 in the 300 mag has the same trajectory as a 30 06 with a 150 gr. A 30-06 is a great gun, but for elk I would really say use a bit heavier rifle.

 

[itgoesboom]

itgoesboom:

As to the Model 7 vs. whatever other heavier rifle, get what you like. But, as has been mentioned, consider the weight. Us hunters, in the field, we carry our rifles a lot more than we shoot 'em. I'd recommend the Model 7, or a Savage Model 11 (mine's .243 but it comes in .308 too), or a Model 70 Classic Compact in .308.

Mustanger,

Thats kinda what I am thinking. There was quite a bit of hiking involved on Sunday, and that was just a 1-day introduction to hunting. Next years hunt will probably involve quite a bit more hiking, and every lb. counts.

My biggest concern with the model seven is whether I can find a .308 load that will ethically and cleanly kill an Elk out to 300 or so yards.

MDshooter,

Your advice regarding the shooting sticks seems like solid advice. The rifle I used had a bipod on it, and it got caught on things, and made noise. For sure if I get the model seven, I won't add a bipod. The idea here is to reduce weight, and to make it easier on me to hike and stalk.

Thanks everyone for your opinion.

I.G.B.

 

[el44vaquero]

30-30 or 30-06

 

[mustanger98]

My biggest concern with the model seven is whether I can find a .308 load that will ethically and cleanly kill an Elk out to 300 or so yards.

I believe there is such a .308 load, but I also know there is no "magic bullet". Get a 150gr SP of your choice and place it right. Punch the elk's upper lungs and he won't go far. He won't go anywhere if that shot also disrupts the spine.

FWIW, I was watching one of those hunting show on the Outdoor Channel a while back- they were archery hunting for elk and some woman made a upper lung/spinal shot and the elk went down in his tracks and died right there. I know that's a lot closer, but what I'm getting at is if an arrow did that well, a 180gr SP from 300yds away will do it too.

For sure if I get the model seven, I won't add a bipod. The idea here is to reduce weight, and to make it easier on me to hike and stalk.

If you get that Model 7, you won't even need the bipod, period. That rifle's so light it ain't a pain to hold up. For the longer shots, I do recommend wrapping into your sling and getting that much steadier. Up close in the timber, you probably won't have time to wrap in.

Editted to add:

If it was me, I'd just put 170gr SP's in my old .30-30 and go on. But that's me knowing what I'm looking for.

 

[itgoesboom]

Itgoesboom;

I see my comment concerning the whatever a Winchester model 70 classic is, other than a rifle, wasn't germane. Sorry I bothered you.

900F

Not at all. I just wanted to clarify that I am not a gear whore.

My goal is to find the right rifle now, and practice during the offseason so that when next years season comes around, I won't be worrying or thinking about my rifle during the hunt.

I.G.B.

 

[Preacherman]

IGB, you're really talking about two different kinds of hunting, and whilst I sympathize with your desire to find one rifle suitable for both, it's not very realistic... I think you're stuck with getting a rifle that will be ideal for one type of hunting, but will also serve, if needed, for the second type (unless, of course, you get two different rifles for the different scenarios involved).

The first priority is to be able to make accurate hits at longer ranges (300 yards plus) with a cartridge that will deliver sufficient energy at those ranges. I think that the .308 is marginal in such a scenario, as is the .30-'06, if we're talking about elk: sure, they'll do the job, but they don't have any horsepower to spare. For a longer shot like that, I'd suggest 7mm. Rem. Mag., .300 WSM, or an equivalent round as being an effective minimum.

That said, any rifle chambered in those rounds is probably going to be longer and heavier than you would like to carry around the woods for shorter-range hunting: but it will do the job. However, any woods rifle, light and short, won't give you the long-range accuracy and velocity you need out in the open. Also, typical woods rounds (e.g. .30-30, .45-70, etc.) will have a rainbow-like trajectory at longer ranges, and won't deliver the accuracy or energy of a more modern design.

I think that your choice is clear, given the limitations you've proposed.