Hunting Rifle Dilemma

[JShirley]

anything outside of Africa...

Well, I reckon you're welcome to hunt Brown Bear in thick cover with a .308 if you like, or Tiger or Elephant in India with a .308, but I won't be with you.

John

 

[Powderman]

Suggestion:

The Thompson/Center Contender Rifle, with two barrels:

One, with 3-9x or 4-12x mounted on a compensated .308 or .30-06 barrel;
One with a 2-7x mounted, on a .45-70 barrel.

Switchable in minutes, lots of variety there. Can be reloaded as fast--or even faster--than most bolt action rifles.

 

[lubbockdave]

Dude, get you a Tikka T3 light stainless/synthetic in either 308 or 30 06. Slap a 2-7 scope on there and you have an absolute tack driver that will cover both situations well-total package is about 7 lbs.

I got mine in 308 for $400 nib, bushnell 2-7 3200 was $125 off E-bay. After sighting the gun in, I was getting one ragged hole at 100 yards using factory ammo. Now I have no "need" for any other hunting rifle for most anything I will ever hunt. Does not mean I don't or won't buy any more, buy this gun covers it all. Shootin sticks or some type of rest would be prudent fot those long shots.

My second choice would be along the lines of the rec for a Ruger #1A if a more traditional set-up is more to your liking-some folks prefer the wood to the plastic stock-it ads more weight, but helps absorb more recoil and it's a lot prettier to look at. I absolutly LOVE my Ruger #1a 7x57-wears a WeaverGrand Slam 1-5 scope and is a joy to carry deer hunting.

Of the 2 guns you mentioned, I'd go with the model 7 .308-it should cover you under both conditions...in my opinion. Don't the military snipers us .308's for long range target shooting and in the field use? up to 1000 yards? So why would the .308 be "marginal" at 300 yards? Not trying to slam anyone, just looking for the education-Me personally, I'd rather be 50 yards or closer under hunting situations-one so I have a better chance of making contact , and two, because at 300 yards or beyond it seems to me like it would become more of a shooting challange than a hunt.

Dave

 

[Werewolf]

CZ-550 FS

Light at 7.3 lbs. The short 20" barrel will reach out to 300 yards or so easy with available calibers of 30-06, .308 or 9.3X62 (well maybe not with the 9.3 subject to the shooters skill level). It's length of 41" though longer than a lever gun is still quite handy. Comes with iron sights so to use it at 300+ yards plus you better have good eyes or have it drilled and tapped for a scope.

I partially agree with Preacherman that .308 might not have what it takes at the 300 yard ranges to take down a large elk. The caveat is a function of skill. If one has the skill to do a heart/lung shot at 300 yards the .308 will take down an elk easy. Breaking a shoulder though with a 180gr or the more normal 150 or 165 gr bullet might be iffy - hell probably is.

The 9.3X62 is a big enough/heavy enough bullet to make it a decent brush gun if one wants to use it that way.

The FS is for CZ an unusually expensive piece at an MSRP of around $700.

 

[lubbockdave]

CZ-550 FS

I partially agree with Preacherman that .308 might not have what it takes at the 300 yard ranges to take down a large elk. The caveat is a function of skill. If one has the skill to do a heart/lung shot at 300 yards the .308 will take down an elk easy. Breaking a shoulder though with a 180gr or the more normal 150 or 165 gr bullet might be iffy - hell probably is.
QUOTE]


ahhhh...I see now. All my shots taken are broadside heart/lung shots. I know some say, "aim for the shoulders" but I look for the plate size area just behind the shoulders, I wait for my shot or I pass. To each their own though I guess...

I hear good things about the CZ's also, but have not shot one myself-

Dave

 

[SwampWolf]

I have to second browningguy's 77RSI in .308 recommendation with the 2X7 scope. That rig is one of my set-ups exactly and does afford the best of both worlds in that it is good for accurate 300 yd. shots (I like the 165 grainers) and almost as handy as a Model 94 carbine in the woods.

My other "big mammal" rig is one suggested by r bernie: a Savage 99 or a Winchester 88 (both discontinued,of course). Though r bernie advised the .308, I prefer the Win. .358 round using 250 gr. Silvertips. (you get a little more recoil and give up a little more range compared to the .308 but, in my experience, the .358 brings a lot quicker finality to the shot). I mounted an old Redfield Widefield 1.5X5 to my 99 using a WEAVER "Pivot Mount" (so that I can access the open sights in the event snow obscures my vision with the scope-I hate so-called see-thru rings) and have found this set-up to be the perfect big timber rifle.

 

[itgoesboom]

IGB, you're really talking about two different kinds of hunting, and whilst I sympathize with your desire to find one rifle suitable for both, it's not very realistic... I think you're stuck with getting a rifle that will be ideal for one type of hunting, but will also serve, if needed, for the second type (unless, of course, you get two different rifles for the different scenarios involved).

Preacherman,

That's kinda the answer I was afraid to hear.

The first priority is to be able to make accurate hits at longer ranges (300 yards plus) with a cartridge that will deliver sufficient energy at those ranges. I think that the .308 is marginal in such a scenario, as is the .30-'06,

I thought that the .30-06 was what everyone recommended for an Elk rifle? Is it really too underpowered to cleanly take and elk at 300-400 yards (max range)?

I am hesitent to go above .30-06 due to recoil sensitivities. I wouldn't be able to practice as much with a heavier recoil rifle, and then I might not be as accurate.

Suggestion:

The Thompson/Center Contender Rifle, with two barrels:

One, with 3-9x or 4-12x mounted on a compensated .308 or .30-06 barrel;
One with a 2-7x mounted, on a .45-70 barrel.

Powderman,

I think that is an intresting idea. Could work, but would probably be a little out of my price range. I will have to look into that though, since I think those T/C rifles are pretty sweet.

But I would be hesitent to use a single shot rifle in an area where I might be going after bears, even though I would be going after smaller ones.

Dude, get you a Tikka T3 light stainless/synthetic in either 308 or 30 06. Slap a 2-7 scope on there and you have an absolute tack driver that will cover both situations well-total package is about 7 lbs.

That's actually a very good idea. I just checked the specs, and while the Hunter Lite doesn't have irons, the Battue Lite does, and weighs less than the Model Seven, and is only 1/2" longer overall, and comes in .30-06.

That might just be the winner.

Thanks everyone for all the advice.

I.G.B.

 

[Essex County]

I'm a great believer in simplicity

I have never hunted Elk, butI have been a guest in a number of in Colarado Elk camps. Just a couple of observations........a whole bunch of .300 magnums and .338's, lots of 3X9 variables and too many ATV's and not enough horses. If it was me I think I'd grab an '06 with a quality 4X scope. It's very easy to get carried away with " the perfect " set up. This is based on casual observation, not experience. I'd appreciate feed back from those who do.........Thank's, Essex

 

[CB900F]

Itgoesboom;

Given a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps and the speer 180 spitzer, the .30-06 shows a retained energy at 300 yards of over 1800 ft lbs. Figures taken from Speer #13. Hornady #6 also shows several loads capable of launching their 180 grain bullets at 2700 fps with the .30-06.

Three hundred yards really isn't all that far. If you have a range that allows 300 yard shooting, start practicing at that range. Which is not to say to ignore 100 & 200 yard targets, 'cause you should be aware of the trajectory at intermediate ranges also. But, once you're comfortable that you can hit at 300, start using gallon milk jugs filled with water as a target. Vary the distance & learn to reliably hit from 50 to 300. The area of the milk jug will serve quite nicely as boiler-room central on an elk.

And by the way, 1800 ft lbs of energy is entirely sufficient to kill an elk at 300 yards. That's over 3/4's of a ton moving at over 2100 fps when it hits. You put it in the right spot, the animal's gonna die.

Speer's numbers were produced in a Remington 700 with a 22" barrel. Hornady's in a Winchester model 70 showing a 23.75" barrel. I like both manuals because they use real guns, not test barrels. Hornady is more conservative than Speer almost across the board, but the two provide an excellent real-world area of comparison. My Oehler 35P tends to fall in the upper end, toward the Speer book, but those are my guns. The gun-to-gun variances can be fairly wide.

900F

 

[itgoesboom]

Well, you guys have talked me out of a Model Seven, atleast until I have another rifle that can handle the longer needs.

So based on that, and what fits me well, I am going to start taking a closer look at the Tikka T3 lite in .30-06 and the T/C Encore in .30-06.

Thanks again everyone.

I.G.B.

 

[mustanger98]

I've looked at Tikka's in my prefered shop here. The ones I've looked at are a nice lightweight rifle with a slick action and good trigger. Made in Finland if memory serves. I don't see where you'd go wrong with one with good glass, since I haven't seen one with sights.

 

[paul105]

IGB,

Take a close look at the Federal "High Energy" 180gr Nosler Partion 30-06 ammo. It actually chronographs 2,875 fps from my 24" Weatherby Vanguard -- this was at 26 degrees and above 5,000 ft elevation. Lop off 100 fps for a 20" barrel, and your still running 2,750 fps+. The Nosler Partion 180gr Spitzer has a .474 ballistic coefficient -- retains velocity and energy very well at long range (Not so with the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw version of this ammo -- less efficienct Bal Coef.). At 400 yards, this load (started at 2,750 fps) will be running about 2,100 fps with approx 1,800 fpe and drop 23" with a 200 yd zero (assuming .450 BC, 40 deg temp, and 6,000 ft elev.)

I'm not suggesting you shoot at elk at 400 yds, but this load should be more than adequate at 300 yds.

I have a Ruger Ultra Light 30-06 (20" bbl w/muzzle brake) that I semi customized for my daughter. It has a McMillan Ultra Light stock with a 12 1/2" length of pull, a 2x-7x Leup Compact in no longer available Leup low Ruger type integral ring/bases. This rifle is short and handy. At 7 lbs loaded with sling and scope, it is a delight to carry in the high country. The short length of pull is an advantage with bulky winter clothing and makes for quick mounting in the timber. This is the rifle that I find myself carrying more and more.

Also have a lightweight (Right at 8 lbs loaded, scoped, slung) 300 Win Mag that has been/is my primary elk rifle. Loaded with 200gr Nos Parts at 2,950 fps and equiped with a Jewel trigger, this would be my preferred rig for longer shots. With that said, I keep gravitating back to the Ruger Ultra Light 30-06 -- it is such a joy to tote around the mountains. In fact, today I bought another box of the aforementioned Fed High Engergy 30-06, 180gr Nos Parts which I will use to sight in the Ruger tomorrow. It will accompany me next weekend in pursuit of elk in the Montana high country.

Also, take a look at the Kimber 8400 Montana rifle series (the stainless, synthetic version). I have handled these, and they are an abosulte delight. They are available in standard and the new short mag calibers.

Also, Federal catalogs the .308 Win with the 180gr Nos Part High Energy round at 2,740 fps (assume this is from a 24" bbl.

FWIW,

Paul

 

[gaston_45]

I use one rifle for elk,deer, or coyotes around here, an H&R ultra single shot in 308 win firing a 150 grn nosler ballistic tip. The key is knowing your rifle and load, not how big it is. If you can put your rounds inside 4 inches at whatever range you want to shoot then any centerfire will suffice. 4 inches is a good head or neck shot, or if closer a broadside heart/lung shot. It is a lot easier practicing enough to do this with a 308 class rifle than it is with a 300 mag or 40 cal class rifle.

Also consider the single shot rifles, you get a lot better at choosing your shots and they are just as fast with practice. I got 2 rounds into a coyote at 383 yards measured with that ultra single. He looks pretty good on the back of the chair.

 

[nfl1990]

For the combo that you are looking for I recomend the Springfield Scout Sqaud M1A. It has a shorter barrel lenth than the regular (18" vs. 22") But still longer than the Socom II (16") All three are chambered in .308Win

 

[Preacherman]

I thought that the .30-06 was what everyone recommended for an Elk rifle? Is it really too underpowered to cleanly take and elk at 300-400 yards (max range)?

IGB, it's not that the .308 or .30-'06 are underpowered - manifestly, they're not (even a .30-30 will take an elk cleanly, given its use at appropriate ranges). The problem is accuracy at the longer ranges you're talking about. A 300-yard shot is NOT easy under hunting conditions, particularly when the animal may not be very co-operative about giving you a clean, unobstructed view of the heart/lung area. Your bullet must retain sufficient energy to punch through bone to get to the vitals, if necessary - or you must be self-disciplined enough to pass up shots that don't give you a clear view of that area. Not many hunters are this self-disciplined!

My standard advice to any and all shooters in a hunting situation is to limit your shots to those meeting ALL of the following criteria:

1. A range at which you can guarantee all of your shots within a 6" diameter circle from your shooting position. This means that if a freehand (i.e. standing) shot is what's available, you'll only take that shot if you can guarantee that level of accuracy - which for many hunters is a surprisingly short range... not many can manage it under field conditions at even 100 yards! From prone, or a rest, many of us can manage that 6" requirement at 200 or 250 yards, but again, many hunters (the majority, in my experience) can't do it at 300 yards. You have to get to know your own potential, and your own limitations, and those of your weapon, and restrict your shots accordingly.

2. A range at which your bullet will punch through to the vitals of the animal, OR where you have a clear shot at the heart/lung area unobstructed by legs, spine, buttocks, or other body parts. This means that you have to take bullet construction into account (it's got to be tough enough to smash through sometimes heavy bone and still retain its shape, and enough energy to go further) as well as target conformation (a bullet that will break a deer bone may not work too well on bison or bear). Your bullet design may be heavily dependent upon velocity to work - for example, a hollow or soft point fired at longer ranges, where velocity drops off, might perform more like a solid than an expanding bullet. You have to get to know your chosen bullet and its performance, and work within those parameters.

3. Finally, you have to apply the above criteria in the field. It's relatively easy to take a 300-yard shot from a bench rest on a flat, level, windless shooting range. It's quite a bit more difficult to make the same shot on a mountain slope, shooting up- or downhill, with a strong crosswind, in drifting snow or light rain, at a target that's standing at an angle to you, and isn't displaying a nice neat bullseye where you want the bullet to go! You have to train and practice under field conditions, and only take shots that you know you can make.

Unfortunately, most hunters ignore these factors, and blaze away in the confidence that they're natural born riflemen - a confidence that is all too often misplaced or overblown, I'm afraid... For your specific criteria, with shots out to 400 yards, you need a round that will deliver a high level of accuracy, and a high level of energy, to punch through bone and get to the vitals, on a heavy animal, in all sorts of field conditions. I simply won't trust the standard .30-caliber rounds to do this consistently. I'd want the higher energy levels of 7mm. Mag. or the hotter .30 caliber cartridges to give me greater impact and penetration energy, and to give me a flatter shooting trajectory. Even with these, I'd probably want to limit my range to less than 300 yards - but that's my own limitation on myself. YMMV.

 

[itgoesboom]

PMan,

Thanks again.

The reason why I mention out to 400 yards is that seems to be a theme on here when people talk about Elk and distance, and to make sure that I am not at the theoretical limit @ 300 yards with whatever catridge I am using.

Realistically, I would probably keep most all of my shots under 300 yards. Especially this hunt I went on, I wouldn't have thought of any shot past 300 yards or so, and I wouldn't have tried anything past 200 yards without the bipod or resting on a stump, and using a range finder.

But really, my purpose right now is to find the "right rifle". That means I have to find the right caliber, that will provide the ability to take the game that I am going after ethically at realistic ranges. Then I have to find the rifle that has the right accuracy (probably the easiest part, since there are so many great rifles out there now), and finally, the rifle has to fit me well, and be of a logical weight and size.

After I find it, then I can get on with what is even more important, and that being practicing at likely ranges and positions (sitting, prone, offhand, with a bipod and without, with a sling and without).

So if you guys tell me that a 20" .308 won't do the job ethically, then I am going to start looking at the next step up, a 22" .308 or a 20" .30-06. If you guys tell me that they won't do the job, then I will step up to a 22" .30-06.

I.G.B.

 

[rbullom]

IGB,
Increasing the barrel length of the 308 from 20 to 22 is not really stepping it up. Maybe the accuracy but that is questionable. A single shot for elk is not a wise choice for most beginners. If they are still standing you better be reloading and shooting again. Never know where the previous shot placement was for sure. I suggessted before the Tika and others have agreed. There are other lightweights in bolt action that are fine rifles too. I've always looked at the 30-06 as the all around utility cartridge. Not the best at any one thing but good enough and certainly better than the the 308 for elk. With all the improvements made in cartridges over the past 50 years think about one of the flatter shooting more efficient options. Winchester's Short Mags are very efficient (small case capacity, less recoil, high energy, high velocity).