Hunting with FN/FAL

[Rred]

"but it deserves to be said that the .308Win is EXACTLY the same as the 7.62x51mmNATO cartridge. "
They are? Even though the specifications published for the two are always different? Go look 'em up in any reloading manual, the cartridges are different sizes.
It deserves to be said that you can USUALLY interchange the two without any damage. And, that you cannot interchange the two in accurized rifles without losing accuracy. You can match the load and chamber for one, or the other. And then run both, usually, but NOT with maximum accuracy, or complete safety.
Not my opinion. Go look 'em up yourself. Ask Sierra, ask anyone that makes reloading dies, ask DSA (who make chambers in both sizes), ask the NRA. The cartridges *overlap* and *typically* fall in the same dimensions, but they are not the same, and that can ruin your day. Or, just your score.

 

[Maverick223]

They are? Even though the specifications published for the two are always different?

The specs. are NOT different (and the pressure for 7.62NATO is not 54kCUP), only different methods of pressure measurement. Lyman's 49th Ed. and A-Square Any Shot You Want (the only loading manuals I have handy ATM), both state that they are the same cartridge and are completely interchangeable. In fact Lyman's lists the name as .308 Winchester, 7.62 x 51mm, and 7.62 NATO (later 2 in parenthesis), as well as listing some loads in CUP and some in Piezo PSI. The A-Square manual lists the maximum average pressures for both in the cartridge specs. (52kCUP & 62kPSI), has different loads using both pressure systems, and specifically states (beginning in paragraph 2, page no. 401) the following: "While development [of the 7.62NATO] was going on, Winchester Olin asked permission, and received it in 1952, to bring out a civilian version of the same cartridge. Winchester named the new cartridge the .308 Winchester. [...]".

Not my opinion. Go look 'em up yourself. Ask Sierra, ask anyone that makes reloading dies, ask DSA (who make chambers in both sizes), ask the NRA. The cartridges *overlap* and *typically* fall in the same dimensions, but they are not the same, and that can ruin your day. Or, just your score.

Neither is it mine...there are absolutely no safety implications in interchanging the aforementioned cartridges, and the only accuracy differences is in the loading tolerances utilized (load 'em the same and they will result in the same accuracy) and quality of brass (some military brass is inferior, some better, some thicker, et al)...the designation has nothing to do with it. The chambers may be cut slightly differently, but that has NOTHING to do with differences in the chambering and EVERYTHING to do with reliability vs. accuracy (the former being important for battle rifles, the later for sniping and hunting platforms).

 

[Tirod]

I bought a HK91 in the '70's, mounted a 1Gen Aimpoint on it, and used that as my primary deer rifle for twenty years. It will knock down deer, well enough, and will be more effectively accurate on the first shot than a bolt gun. Why? Because it will get on target faster, with less sight alignment, allowing a quicker, easier decision to pull the trigger.

With iron sights you have to align front and rear, with scopes eye relief is important. Snapping the gun to the shoulder and seeing a red dot on the rib cage is generally much faster, isn't affected by cheek weld or sight alignment, and gets you into adjusting the point in target sooner.

Then the whole point of a semi auto loader means the follow up shot will not require you to lose sight picture. You respond to recoil and keep watching with the red dot on target.

The offset is that .308 battle rifles are a hybrid, a full power cartridge stuffed into a assault rifle design, and none the better for it. The HK was a heavy pig still hunting, walking in and out from a deer stand, scouting, etc. Cool as all get out in the parking lot or range, in the day, but not so much in the field. Sold it off for 5 times what I paid for it.

In the meantime, I tried a scoped bolt, and things got worse. Picked up an old lever gun, and the joy came back, some, but I won't be happy until I get the AR15 in 6.8 finished, with a red dot on it. It is far and away the better combination of light weight, sufficient, flat shooting, and appropriate power, with a fast and sure sighting system. No dickering around with obtuse mechanical controls or multi plane sights.

Having come full circle, so to speak, it's obvious a newer design firearm would be a user friendly shooter compared to the relics still worshipped on the marketplace. After all, if a soldier can shoot the newer guns easier and more accurately under the stress of combat, why not enjoy that as a plus to more accurate, humane hunting?

I have to ask, do the older bolts and levers actually foster more harm than good? After all, the biggest organizations of professional shooters worldwide don't issue them to the majority of soldiers, just a highly trained few who can take advantage of their precision in extreme circumstances. That is NOT the average hunter, despite their testosterone affected disorder in logic.

Only in the last few years has using a military based weapon for hunting fallen into as much derision in some quarters as it has. Strangely enough, a lot of the cat calls come from a generation reknown for sporterizing combat bolt action rifles. What hypocrisy. The wouldn't even be shooting as much as they do if it weren't for the glut of Mausers, Springfields, etc., dumped on the market for less than the cost of new. It's a wonder they can even buy some brands after choking them for a generation playing with milsurp guns at one quarter the price.

Take a long look at the sporterized guns, it's what Elmer REALLY shot in the day, the little thing he doesn't mention - like how he met your mom.

 

[USSR]

Rred,

Maverick223 is spot on. Essentially no difference, other than 7.62x51 brass typically has less case capacity than .308Win, so you use slightly less powder to generate the same pressure/velocity. Oh, and they don't sell 7.62x51 sizing dies, so what does that tell ya?

Don

 

[W.E.G.]

.308 Winchester ammo and 7.62 NATO ammo both work PERFECT in any FAL.

Y'all really need to stop arguing about that.

 

[Rred]

Maverick-
"there are absolutely no safety implications in interchanging the aforementioned cartridges,"
OK, so when I read about the British warnings in the US NRA magazine over a decade ago, both national associations were wrong about there being a potential safety issue. You're right, they're wrong, it could never cause a slamfire and undoubtedly never has.

 

[Rred]

USSR-
"Oh, and they don't sell 7.62x51 sizing dies, " You may not find 'em stocked on the shelf, but they can be custom ordered. And it won't be to 308W dimensions.
What's available on the mass market shelves, only tells me what mass marketing has been successful about selling. Or do you think the most popular selling brand/make of ammo must also therefore be the most accurate one for hunting? Maybe it is just the cheapest for plinking? Or the one that has the sexiest magazine ads?

 

[Maverick223]

OK, so when I read about the British warnings in the US NRA magazine over a decade ago, both national associations were wrong about there being a potential safety issue.

Is this the same nation that has been trying so hard to completely ban firearms...i'll take that advice with a healthy dose of salt.

You're right, they're wrong, it could never cause a slamfire and undoubtedly never has.

Never seen one in a FAL, at least not one attributed to running commercial .308Win., but military primers tend to be harder than their civilian counterparts...might that be the problem you describe?

USSR-
"Oh, and they don't sell 7.62x51 sizing dies, " You may not find 'em stocked on the shelf, but they can be custom ordered. And it won't be to 308W dimensions.

I believe what you are referring to is the small base dies...these are not for military arms, or 7.62x51mm/7.62NATO rifles, they are recommended for ALL semi-automatic rifles to ensure reliable functioning.

FWIW, you can believe what you like, using only 7.62NATO in SA "battle rifles" and .308Win. in "sporting rifles" won't hurt anything...then again neither will the opposite condition.

 

[USSR]

What's available on the mass market shelves, only tells me what mass marketing has been successful about selling.

Oh, I see. That explains why you can buy the wildly successful .303 Savage, .25-35 Winchester, and .219 Donaldson Wasp dies, as opposed to dies for the obscure and seldom used 7.62x51 Nato round. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Don