Hypocracy in enforcing 2 different Amendments

Status
Not open for further replies.

gunnutery

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
1,682
Location
Iowa
So on my way home from work this morning I heard an NPR news segment which said WI's voter ID law was struck down because the judge said it was unconstitutional because it would discriminate against Blacks and Hispanics because they would be less likely to get the required IDs. I'm pretty sure such IDs would have to be free or very reduced.

However, jump over to the 2A, and we're required to apply and pay for licencing and training!! Here in Iowa, to carry firearm the licence (5year) and training cost $150. Not exactly non-discriminatory.

Any chance (even 1%) we could use this logic for Constitutional carry?
 
It's a good rhetorical device if you can use it cleverly. I have no idea about legal precedents.
 
Any chance (even 1%) we could use this logic for Constitutional carry?

Maybe, but the ruling you cited could be overturned, right? Other States have had similar cases that went the other way, so I assume it could eventually go to the SCOTUS.

The reasoning I've heard about in my State regarding the legality of id requirements was that the id was available at no cost. So I assume it could be ruled that the fee to carry is unconstitutional.
 
Maybe, but the ruling you cited could be overturned, right? Other States have had similar cases that went the other way, so I assume it could eventually go to the SCOTUS.

The reasoning I've heard about in my State regarding the legality of id requirements was that the id was available at no cost. So I assume it could be ruled that the fee to carry is unconstitutional.
This is what I was thinking. Federal court splits on a hot button issue means this one will end up at SCOTUS, I would expect.
 
It's not the result. It's how the court got there and the legal principles and precedents relied on. You can't possible guess whether there's anything in that decision which might help in another context without closely reading and thoroughly understanding the actual court opinion.

These things are complicated.
 
CatManDo said:
Complicated, yes. Just like the framers of the Constitution wanted, NOT!!
Really?

Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers. They understood how the law works. They understood what the exercise of judicial power (as they delegated to the federal courts in Article III of the Constitution) means. They had no reason to believe that the application of law (including the Constitution) to the deciding of cases and controversies would necessarily be simple.
 
Really?

Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers. They understood how the law works. They understood what the exercise of judicial power (as they delegated to the federal courts in Article III of the Constitution) means. They had no reason to believe that the application of law (including the Constitution) to the deciding of cases and controversies would necessarily be simple.

It is questionable whether they actually thought they were delegating to the federal courts the power that is now exercised by them.

Rather they believed that all three branches of the government would exercise constitutional restraint. The Congress by not passing unconstitutional bills, the President by refusing to enforce unconstitutional laws, and the Courts by refusing to act on them.

Remember a couple of things that they also didn't anticipate:

The party system

The electoral college actually electing the president (some of the FF's believed that a pack of favorite sons would garner electoral votes, and that fairly frequently the House of Reps would end up actually choosing the POTUS.)

The almost complete uselessness of the powers of impeachment. (It was thought that impeachment and removal from office would be fairly common for any kind of misdeed by federal officials. As it happens that has not turned out to be the case.)

No, the hypocracy noted by the original poster is due to the fairly obvious truth that we live under a government of men and not laws.

Very few Congressmen, Senators, Presidents, or Federal Judges have any respect, or even understanding of the rule of law.

Disagree? Take a look at Alcohol prohibition. In 1919 it was (correctly) noted that the Federal Government banning booze would require a constitutional amendment to grant it that authority. Even Joe Sixpack realized this. Today the Federal government claims the right to implement Obamacare, Congress claims the right to delegate declaration of war to the executive. FISA courts, unauthorized spying on all Americans, Torture. Need I go on? Probably 90% of what the Feds do is outside of their charter. I like to call this 'aconstitutional' government. That is to say the constitution provides no effective barrier to the government doing exactly what it wishes.

Lastly, it is worth noting that the constitution is a comparatively short document written in plain English. Lawyers or not, (and there are some notable exceptions) they wrote a document designed to be clear and understandable.
 
It is questionable whether they actually thought they were delegating to the federal courts the power that is now exercised by them.
I'd say it's quite certain they didn't.

On the original topic, the greater hypocrisy is that the voter ID laws are challenged as being racially biased, while many of the antigun laws were rooted in disarming minorities.

Getting anyone on the left, let alone a judge, to listen is generally an exercise in futility.
 
On the other hand, the Founding Fathers were educated men and knew something of history. They had reason to know that things change in unanticipated ways and the the future was beyond their control.

And the lawyers among them understood how the Common Law had evolved and was likely to continue to evolve.

In any case, things are as they are today, and my original comment stands.
 
As the photo ID required is free of charge, I see little validity that it is discriminatory. It just would take a little effort to go and get it. Didn't know laziness is determined by race or ethnicity.
 
So on my way home from work this morning I heard an NPR news segment which said WI's voter ID law was struck down because the judge said it was unconstitutional because it would discriminate against Blacks and Hispanics because they would be less likely to get the required IDs. I'm pretty sure such IDs would have to be free or very reduced.

However, jump over to the 2A, and we're required to apply and pay for licencing and training!! Here in Iowa, to carry firearm the licence (5year) and training cost $150. Not exactly non-discriminatory.

Any chance (even 1%) we could use this logic for Constitutional carry?
The judge in Wisconsin is wrong IMO.
 
Liberals have always been against voter ID laws. Namely because if you had to flash a valid ID to vote, Democrats would lose a large amount of their voter base. But yet we have to pay, sometime hefty fees and IDs, to exercise another fundamental right to firearms. If showing an ID to buy a firearm (which I have had to do 99.9% of the time) is constitutional, so should showing one to vote. Because, in theory, voting is more powerful than firearms.
 
Because, in theory, voting is more powerful than firearms.

The Constitution recognizes the right of the people to keep & bare arms, but does not recognize the right of the people to vote. It does state the right to vote (it is in most / all State constitutions ???) cannot be discriminatory based on race. IMHO, the Fed constitution seems to consider the right to keep and bare arms is more important.
 
As the photo ID required is free of charge, I see little validity that it is discriminatory. It just would take a little effort to go and get it. Didn't know laziness is determined by race or ethnicity.

There's always an excuse. I've heard that minorities and/or the poor would have to take off work to get an ID, spend money for gas/bus fare, etc., etc.
 
However, jump over to the 2A, and we're required to apply and pay for licencing and training!! Here in Iowa, to carry firearm the licence (5year) and training cost $150. Not exactly non-discriminatory.

Any chance (even 1%) we could use this logic for Constitutional carry?

There is a chance, sure, but still unlikely. The problem of reasonable restrictions comes into play and reasonable restrictions are accepted by the courts. Precedents for one issue do not always transcend to similar issues of different subject matter in the courts.

As for the Founding Fathers, they complicated the issue of the 2nd significantly through racism, and through the Militia Acts that made the 2nd amendment not a right, but a legal obligation for men of certain traits, and as such infringed the right themselves.
 
If presenting an ID is an impediment to voting how can felons, noncitizens, and others who do not have the legal authority to vote be screened out of the process? Here in Colorado the legislature and the idiot of a Governor we have passed a law that allows you to vote on election day as long as you tell the election authority that you intend to move into that precinct without any proof whatsoever. The ballot casting possiblities are endless. Perhaps Frank can explain how the Founders also envisioned that. Otherwise I believe he is a deep plant for the progressives.
 
I've heard that minorities and/or the poor would have to take off work to get an ID, spend money for gas/bus fare, etc., etc.

In that case they could exempt employees from work so that they can go get their voter ID, much like employers are required to give people time off for jury duty. One would obviously have to show proof to the employer that they actually obtained what they left work for.

Which ever side of this issue is right, it's infuriating that it's not applied across the board for all exercisable rights. Personally, I'd rather have Constitutional carry, but I can see the other side (ID's and such). It's sad that because of growing abuses (assassinations on the gun side and voter fraud on the voting side) ID's and licenses become standard and the credibility of "We the People" becomes increasingly questioned.
 
why would blacks and hispanics be less likely to get a $5 state issued i.d. card?
 
IMHO, this is an interesting topic and if we/me can keep it focused it might stay open. :)

Which ever side of this issue is right, it's infuriating that it's not applied across the board for all exercisable rights. Personally, I'd rather have Constitutional carry, but I can see the other side (ID's and such). It's sad that because of growing abuses (assassinations on the gun side and voter fraud on the voting side) ID's and licenses become standard and the credibility of "We the People" becomes increasingly questioned
.

Thinking in this way, IMO, is a vey useful in evaluating our opinions.
 
Those claiming that certain races or demographics wouldn't/couldn't get a (free or cheap) ID, in a way are trying to defend them. However OTOH, they're also putting them down. I would be offended if somebody lumped me in as being poor or lazy just based on my race, which is exactly what is being implied in the news segment.
 
Those claiming that certain races or demographics wouldn't/couldn't get a (free or cheap) ID, in a way are trying to defend them. However OTOH, they're also putting them down. I would be offended if somebody lumped me in as being poor or lazy just based on my race, which is exactly what is being implied in the news segment.

some would argue the truth, others would say its a stereotype come to life.... one could argue that many of those fearful folks are already in possession of a state issued welfare/ebt card so whats the difference?

the truth is the i.d. card minimizes voter fraud, something the Democrats rather have on election day.
 
While it's true that some of the Founders were lawyers, they also took great pains to communicate in plain language. The sea change came when a "Justice System" became a "Legal System" and we were reduced to determining what the definition of "is" is.

Rather than communicating in plain language and seeking to interpret the plain meaning of a text, our current crop of lawyers twist vocabulary to the point that common sense is lost.

A plain interpretation of voting law stating that identification is not required would, by common sense, dictate that the state could not require identification or licensing to exercise any constitutionally protected right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top