Hypothetical NFA question/challange

[Gene_WI]

Prior to 1986 many weapons where imported into the USA form Finland, among them some SVT-40 rifles. Now there is a version of the SVT-40 called the AVT-40. The AVT is of course a select fire weapon. Unless you are a serious collector it is very hard to tell the SVT and AVT apart, there is a slight difference in the shape of the stock, that is all. The weapon was not marked as select fire at the factory, and the safety acts as the selector. I think that only the trigger group is different, and the receivers are identical, between the SVT and the AVT.

I have seen an occasional AVT for sale at shows, most of those have had the full auto option disabled via a modification to the selector. However recently a report has surfaced that there are indeed full auto AVTs afloat in the country. I believe the reports. It s very plausible that unknowingly some full auto AVTs came mixed in with the SVT lot, and that no one paid enough attention to see this.

Here are the questions.

1) If the AVT was imported prior to 1986, and manufacture in the 40ties, can it be registered?
2) If it can not be registered, what happens to the rifle? There is no criminal intent, no one in the US manufactured it, no one modified it. The ATF signed off on the importation, in the 70ties? Does the buyer go to prison? Does the rifle get destroyed? What about owner compensation?

And finally.

Suppose that one has money for a good lawyer. Can the scenario below e used to put a crack in the NFA.

1) Buy the AVT, and have it shipped to a class 3 dealer. 2) Send in a from one with a $200 check and CLEO sign off. 3) Upon rejection file a lawsuit.

Is such a scenario possible, or are you an instant felon once you mail in the paperwork.

I know pre 86 DEWATS can be re activated. If a full auto AVT can be found, and registered. Would that open the way for transfer of pre1986 manufactured machine guns to civilians. I am thinking of the possibility of doing an M1 carbine scenario for full autos. Remember how the M1 carabine sales negated the 18in barrel length NFA requirement for rifles?

 

[Trebor]

A pre-86 DEWAT can only be reactivated *if* it was registered prior to May 1986.

There is no way the ATF would register a AVT, no matter when it came into the country. If it is ruled to be a MG, and it's not already in the NFA registry, it is contraband. If you went out of your way to show the ATF that it is indeed a MG, the best outcome would be that it would be confiscated with no compensation. The worst outcome would be that you would face criminal charges. The fact that the ATF signed off on the importation, possibly in error, might make enough a difference to keep them from prosecuting you. Then again, it might not.

I don't suggest you try.

 

[ready4shtf]

The above is correct. The last amnesty registration period is over. You best bet is to seal and burry it somewhere and hope the ban is repealed in the future.

 

[El Tejon]

1) No. The importation of machine guns for icky, dirty civilians was cut off in the 1968 Safe Streets Act.

2) The weapon is "destroyed" (some go to ATF agents, some to ATF's collection, inter alia). The owner may or may not be prosecuted and go to the BoP. Depends.

I do not understand why you need to go to these machinations with this specific a weapon (other than you are a gun nut like the rest of us and need to talk about your new lust). Why not challenge the NFA directly as Farmer did?

 

[Gene_WI]

Don't get me wrong guys. I have no desire to play legal games with the alphabet brigade. The question presented here was of pure curiosity.

For example if a bank makes a mistake in my favor, I can not be prosecuted for theft. Apparently if the ATF makes a mistake in my favor it is still a crime on my part.

 

[ready4shtf]

Remember not ALL guns enter the US under the supervision of the ATF. Alot just "show up" on boats carrying other forms of contraband. Slim chance, but its possible it was illegally smuggled into the US, especially since it was made AFTER the '68 import ban. It would be up to you to prove it was THEIR mistake, even so, it probablly wouldent even matter.

 

[El Tejon]

Gene, re: banks--maybe, it depends. Let's say the bank makes a mistake in your favor, e.g. your account number is your deposit amount (happened to me).

In reviewing my bank statement I note that there are tens of millions of dollars in my operating account (where I pay the bills for the office). I bolt up from my chair and run shrieking to the bank=>no crime. However, if I start making withdrawals from my "millions"=potential federal case.

Gene, just talk to some of the NFA dealers who have been in the BoP for mistakes that the ATF made that they paid for.

 

[Gene_WI]

El Tejon

I know about ATF shenanigans well. And I am by no means advocating that anyone try the AVT challenge. I ran across a credible report, my first response was "Dear sir do not touch it with a fifty foot poll". But the situation got me thinking...

Let me reduce the question.

A select fire weapon that entered the country legally, prior to 1968, but was never registered as such. Can it be registered? If not, will the rejection of the form 1 by the ATF give the plaintiff the grounds for a lawsuit.

 

[El Tejon]

No, the weapon cannot be registered.

Yes, rejection of a 1 was Farmer's standing IIRC.

 

[ready4shtf]

It didnt enter the US legally if it didnt get registered during importation. Possible pre-34, but its not that old.

 

[Gene_WI]

El Tejon

Ok

"Yes, rejection of a 1 was Farmer's standing IIRC."

Good to know. Now if there was never any criminal intent on the part of the plaintiff is the case winable.

I.E. Grampa dies. In his attic we find an Mp-40. Like a god citizen we immideatly file a form 1. The from gets rejected. We sue.

The current scenario, is the gun gets surrendered, or turned into a parts kit.

 

[mp510]

I.E. Grampa dies. In his attic we find an Mp-40. Like a god citizen we immideatly file a form 1. The from gets rejected. We sue.

The current scenario, is the gun gets surrendered, or turned into a parts kit.

Since a Form 1 is currently an Application to Make and Register, ATF could try to collar you for filing a fraudulant application. There is an ATF letter floating around on the issue regarding using a Form 1 to register an unregistered (AOW spec) H&R Handygun.

 

[DMF]

A select fire weapon that entered the country legally, prior to 1968, but was never registered as such. Can it be registered? If not, will the rejection of the form 1 by the ATF give the plaintiff the grounds for a lawsuit.

The NFA became law in '34, so your hypothetical gun that entered the country prior to '68 had to be registered for it to be here legally between '34 and '68. Regardless, Congress made it illegal to possess machineguns that were not registered before '86 (18USC922(o)). You would not have grounds for a lawsuit if your application to register the gun was rejected.