Hypothetical question regarding CCW with a few "complications"...

[mongo]

Greetings all, I got to thinking while reading the Logger thread about a situation. Let's say a family man from a state that doesn't allow CCW is traveling with his wife, kids and dogs to a relative's house in another adjoining state that doesn't allow CCW either. This family man feels compelled to carry something to protect his family. The trip has always been an uneventful trip, done during daylight hours, but does require a stop or two at rest stops for the little ones and dogs. The destination is a home on a lake which is on an Indian reservation. This family man likes to take hikes and/or ATV rides, sometimes with his kids. Here's a list of complications: legal CCW is not allowed, wife has NOT been consulted with about the possibility of the family man going armed, place where they are staying would probably not be too pleased if they knew the family man had a firearm with him. One possible choice of firearm could be successfully concealed (a Colt Cobra .38spec snubby), the preferred choice (either a full sized 1911 or a CCO) would be much more difficult for the family man to conceal.
So, what would you do in this HYPOTHETICAL situation?

 

[dakotasin]

indian reservations in s.d. are not good places to be w/ out-of-state tags, and defenseless.

as a family man, i would either not take the trip, or go armed w/o consulting my wife.

but... my situation is different. ccw is legal here, wife prefers for me to carry, and my dogs are labs - if they're going to make a mess in the car, it will be a big mess - so stops would be mandatory.

 

[zastros]

Years ago I worked for Black Hills Playhouse which is in the middle of Custer State Park right in the middle of the Black Hills. I had the same choice .45 or .32, so I went with the concealable choice.

If theyda known, I'da been in the soup. But they didn't so I wasn't.

Luckily, there was never a need. (Though some of the girls did get a bit of a scare from some either 1%ers or wannabes during Bike Week. [Sturgis was not that far away])

zastros

 

[crofrog]

Concealed mean's concealed...

Now mind your OPSEC.

 

[mongo]

Crofrog... I'm sadly ignorant of what your acronym means. I'll tell family man to mind his OPSEC if you tell me what that is.

 

[crofrog]

OPSEC is operational security...

Sorta like saying loose lips sink ship's.

The other common one you'll run into in the community is PERSEC = Personal Security.

 

[Zundfolge]

In many states self defense is an "affirmative defense" against a charge of illegal CCW.


In other words, CCW is illegal there, but if you illegally carry and end up needing your gun in a justified shoot you can get out of the illegal carry charge.


I would doubt that Illinois has such an affirmative defense but I don't know that for sure.

 

[crofrog]

One more thing...

Number one way to get caught with something illegal, not being conifident in carring it.

You look nervous and fidget with **** like what you are trying to conceal.

Just something to look for if you are trying to spot other people who might be breaking the law to report to the apporiate authority's of course.

 

[evan price]

In many states self defense is an "affirmative defense" against a charge of illegal CCW.

In Ohio, when they passed the CCW laws, they specifically included language stating that affirmative defense was now no longer allowed. Note: Again, this is OHIO law.

Date updated: Jul 28, 2005 @ 11:18 pm

Ohio's new concealed carry law has unfortunately removed every affirmative defense from the law. It is a criminal offense to carry a concealed firearm without a license or temporary emergency license to do so. The former law provided affirmative defenses which will not longer be available.

However, it is not against State law to carry a firearm openly so long as you are not in a motor vehicle. There are various local ordinances that prohibit this activity.

Stolen from Packing.org

 

[Low-Sci]

Well, if the wife is with the family man on the trip, there can't be any harm in consulting her on possible open-carry.

If its liable to be a dangerous place, no doubt the wife will understand the potential need and advantages of being armed, even though its bad if people can see it.

If locals are going to pose a problem to an open-carry, and you feel irreversibly compelled to have some sort of soft-metal projectile slinging device on you, then you've no choice but to conceal it, and act as if its the most natural thing in the world.

Lots of people get away with lots of things just by acting like they belong there, or what they're doing is totally normal, even boring.

Nobody has to know your weapon is concealed, that's the point of concealing it. And if you end up in a shoot situation, the fact that you concealed your weapon will very quickly become the least of your worries.

 

[Kamicosmos]

I got lost. OP reminded me of those story problems in math where the actual question has nothing to do with the rest of the story. Why come up with these bizarre hypothetical scenerios anyways? Shoulda thrown in a stop at a Gov Building like State Capitol and/or an airport too.

Concealed means concealed. Or, if you're going to run into that many problems on your trip, I, hypothetically, wouldn't go in the first place.

 

[roscoe]

I would go and I would carry the .38. And I have. Sometimes life is a calculated risk. You would probably look foolish if you chose not to go, and you might regret it if you didn't carry the .38. Just keep it well concealed.

Could you carry a lever carbine in a scabbard on the ATV? Some places are more relaxed about open rifle carry. A Winchester Trapper would be perfect here.

 

[mongo]

Do I have to spell it out for you Kamicosmos? Everyone else seemed to get the drift of the post. This is the "High Road" after all.

 

[carnaby]

Move over here to Washington State. Solves all problems, hopefully doesn't create any new ones. We can use all the help we can get keeping this state gun friendly

 

[billcavazos]

ccw

I always carry when I travel. My kids and my wife never know and I do not want them to know. My Dad was the same way. I also carry a good fighting knife on me 24/7. Make sure you are well trained with what ever weapon you may carry. Most are not so when the time comes and you have to react you more than likely will react incorrectly. What about a night stick? If trained properly you can be a very formidable weapon.

 

[Sistema1927]

When New Mexico passed CCW a couple of years ago, during the required course my instructor (now deceased from West Nile Virus) said: "I have been carrying, legally and illegally, in this state for 18 years."

This received a knowing chuckle or grin from just about everyone in the class. While it is true that we have had car carry and open carry and even concealed carry in the right circumstances prior to the introduction of CCW, most of us decided a long, long time ago that the consequences of being caught without the proper paperwork were far less serious than the consequences of being caught without adequate protection for our lives and loved ones.

Yet, as one who has been carrying for all of my adult life (and I will be 50 in two weeks), the key to carrying without arrousing suspicion is to be confident that you are doing the right thing, decent concealment, and going about your life without telegraphing guilt or acting jittery. Remember, you have a God given right to protect your life and your family, don't feel guilty for doing the right thing.

I would, however, recommend that you discuss this with your wife. If you are truly partners, then she needs to know what you are doing. I am blessed with a wife who knew all those years that her husband cared about her safety, and who is smart enough to keep her mouth shut. You might have a shrew of a wife who will raise a stink or run off her mouth, but I hope that is not the case.

 

[mongo]

Thanks all for your advice. Sistema, my wife would be ok with it, but she doesn't yet know I've bought the .38... uhoh: ) but I think I can explain the finances on that one though. Money is REAL tight right now, and she would hit the ceiling knowing I bought a gun during this period. (hey, it was a GREAT deal that I couldn't pass up) But, explaining why I would be carrying it would be ok with her, I think. As to where we are staying, (my Mother's) that would best be left quiet. Good ol' Mom doesn't share my views on firearms and hunting in general.

 

[mongo]

(durn computers )

 

[mongo]

 

[mongo]

oops

 

[vynx]

cary them all - if you can conceal the .38 go ahead.

Carry the rest in a briefcase or something you can lock up so Mom & the kids don't get into them. Heck, if you end up needing the .38 you might be glad you had an extra 1911 along.

I've never had a ccw and in the last 30 years whenever I drive cross country or state to state I carry - even if its in a camera bag. Never had a problem in 30 years - probably becasue I was prepared and watching my surroundings.

 

[Strings]

hmmm... this hypothetical is driving FROM a no-CCW state to another no-CCW state, and staying on a reservation?

Sounds like someone driving from IL to the area just north of Green Bay, WI. I would have to let that person know that CCW is a Class A Misdemenor in WI (no more than $100K in fines, 9 months in jail, or both). Although, as has been noted, the likelyhood of getting caught (unless you have to use it) is VERY low unless you're nervous...

Feel free to pass on this info to your friend!

 

[CNYCacher]

. . . my wife would be ok with it, but she doesn't yet know I've bought the .38
. . . Money is REAL tight right now, and she would hit the ceiling knowing I bought a gun during this period. (hey, it was a GREAT deal that I couldn't pass up)

Is this the proper forum for what I am about to say? I am not sure. We are all supposed to take THR, and I feel that I would be doing you a disservice by my silence, so here it goes:

As a man, you feel the need to protect your family from predators with force. I think that is something we can all appreciate. However, it is also your obligation to protect your marriage, and your family's bond. Doing things behind your wife's back will always hurt the situation, especially when you did something that you KNEW she would "hit the ceiling" over. A "good deal" on a gun comes along every single day. EVERY DAY! Your wife came along once, and your job is to protect her till death do you part. That includes protecting her from that voice in your own head that urges you to make that purchase, lie to her about it, and then blame it on wanting personal protection. That voice is as dangerous to your family as any predator you might find on your trip, and if you don't stand up and fight him, he will take your family down right in front of your eyes.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you. A man has been planning a trip with his family out of state. He starts to feel concerned about the family's safety on the trip. He lays awake in bed at night worried about how he can protect them. One day he brings his concerns to his wife, sitting her down and saying, "Honey, I am very excited about our trip, but I have become more and more worried about our personal safety, especially given the rough area that we are travelling into (wilderness, etc.). I am worried enough to consider getting a gun to bring with us. Heaven forbid I should ever need it, but in the event that we do need it, I wouldn't want to be without it." Together they decide if a gun, the trip, or both is in their budget. Maybe they decide to go without a gun, maybe with, maybe they decide to go on a different trip. Who knows? Either way, the man has addressed his concerns, and his wife is happy that he could share them with her, and that they could reach an agreement about it. She is also doubtless pleased that he is so concerned about the family, even if his concerns mean thay have to change their plans.

At this point, the high road would be to tell your wife that you bought the gun, explain why you did, and then discuss where to go from there. Entertain the possibility of selling the gun off and re-considering your trip, especially is money is "Real Tight". You are not being a responsible gun owner by being an irresponsible gun buyer. Good luck.

Sorry to the folks who feel that this is off-topic, I think we all can agree that a discussion of when and how to buy guns should be welcomed here.