I could have died today!!

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Greener, it's a lot easier to get a launching platform than explosive ordnance for it. I've got an 83mm Blindicide shoulder-fired rocket launcher, VERY gently "demilled." But all it will ever shoot is fireworks, on account of certain restrictions on ammunition for it.

Think about it -- all of us who own an M59/66 own a "grenade launcher."
 
Don't you think if they could get a hold of a grenade launcher they could get actual grenade rounds? I'm not understanding the doubt here
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OK. A grenade launcher is a NFA weapon. Very restricted. Each grenade is a NFA item and, if anything, even more restricted. I've seen M79 grenade launchers for sale at SOT dealers. Legal dealers in these weapons. I've never seen even the legal dealers with anything for sale for them besides dummy rounds.

Ever heard of the police investigating those explosions where it was found that someone was out practicing with a grenade launcher? Or the reports of something being blown up by what was discovered to be 40mm grenades launched by a grenade launcher? Neither have I.

That's a big part of the skepticism. If the grenade launchers and grenades were readily available, then they would be used. If they were used, unless it was way out in west Texas in the Chihuhuan Desert or some such wasteland, it would be known. It is not known. Therefore, the grenades are not readily available on the black market.

They well could have have a 40mm grenade launcher with HE or antipersonnel rounds. But until I see them; I'll have difficulty believing it.

The 37mm launchers look like one but only flares are available. The police tear gas launchers shoot...get ready:)...tear gas canisters. I've never heard of them being used by anyone but police.

I've no doubt that a grenade launcher could be had if one looked hard enough. I just think you'd have to look a lot harder to find live rounds for it.
 
I'm glad you're ok and the plan was foiled. But for comic relief....I find it so funny when someone says "I almost died today....." yet they don't even have a scratch on them.

But seriously, glad nothing happened and everyone else summed up the valueable post I had.
 
(1) High-Explosive Dual Purpose Round. The HEDP round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel cup attached, white markings, and a gold ogive (head of the round) (Figure 3-10). It penetrates at least 5 cm (2 inches) when fired straight at steel armor at 150 meters or less, or, at a point target it arms between 14 and 27 meters, causes casualties within a 130-meter radius, and has a kill radius of 5 meters.

2) High-Explosive Round. The HE round has an olive drab aluminum skirt with a steel projectile attached, gold markings, and a yellow ogive (Figure 3-11). It arms between 14 and 27 meters, produces a ground burst that causes casualties within a 130-meter radius, and has a kill radius of 5 meters.

(8) Buckshot Round. This round is olive drab with black markings (Figure 3-17). Though it is a multipurpose round, it is most effective in thick vegetated areas or for room clearing. Inside it has at least 2,000 pellets, which cast a cone of fire 30 meters wide and 30 meters high and travel at 269 meters per second. Be sure to aim buckshot rounds at the foot of the target. The round has no mechanical-type fuse.

Taken from FM 3-22.31

40-MM GRENADE LAUNCHER, M203

none of the other rounds listed would have much application in a bank robbery except possible for the CS round. Note that the casualty radius is 130 meters. That would take a darn large building to be sure that you aren't one of the casualties.
 
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As for Stress syndrome, get a "shot" from Dr. Jack Daniels, and have a couple smokes. Your "stress" will be gone. I promise. I don't understand the freaking out part. If you had saw them during your transaction, that I would understand being freaked out. Your chances of being there at the time they chose, is about 1:480
 
Try watching an airliner carrying a professional colleague you've nurtured a secret crush on for years flying right over your head and into the Pentagon.

Being near a robbed bank ... less stressful.
 
DUKE, Did you see the plane hit the pentagon? You should take a lie detector test and post it online, so the conspiracy theorist will shut the **** up about it being an inside job.
 
Thousands saw it. Have you ever seen DC/NV traffic?

Those conspiracy theorists -- I'd like to do things to them not fit for print in a family newspaper.
 
That being said, your suggestions for dealing with these different scenarios range from leaving your wife in the hands of psycopaths to complying and hope for the best.

I am not willing to do that, especially with a family member in danger.
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Ever been in a fight? I'm not talking about the shoving match you had in the second grade, I'm talking about a real fight, one with serious consequences. I find the "hero" persona is very pronounced among people who have no experience with violence and think that the Kel Tec .32 in their pocket is the answer to all of life's tactical problems. It's real easy to sit behind the screen and calmly post about how you will prevail over multiple opponents who have you seriously outgunned. After all it's the internet and the good guys always win.

Real life isn't so clean. People shot with handguns, even major calibers causing fatal wounds often stay in the fight long enough to bring the fight to a draw. Firearms aren't death rays. The chances in any of your little scenarios of you starting and then stopping the fight cleanly with a handgun are pretty slim. In every example you cited there are other people who's lives you have to consider before you start shooting.

Very few bank robberies end with anyone being shot. Why in the world would you want to start a gunfight that you probably aren't equipped to stop and turn what will most likely be a normal robbery with no one hurt into a blood bath? For the glory? So the mayor and police chief will give you the key to the city and a parade? So the bank adds you to the executive bonus list at the end of the year for keeping them from losing the $2500 or so in insured money that they would have gotten from the cash drawer? So you can post on the internet what a bad ass gunfighter you are and bask in the adulation of millions of unknown gun enthusiasts?

You also said that you would not use force when you have an obvious advantage, perhaps even when few or no others would be involved.
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What obvious advantage, shooting through plate glass? Being behind the bad guys? First off it's absolute folly to try to have a gunfight through the plate glass windows. There is nothing in that bank lobby that is going to be cover from rifle rounds so waiting for them to get in the door before engaging is a not the best plan either. As for being behind the bad guys, how do you know there isn't another armed person you haven't spotted watching their back, securing the outside of the building? You draw to calmly shoot them in the back of the head and the tail gunner takes you out, the shooting starts and your wife and maybe several other people die with you. Assuming that there are only two, especially since they are obviously attempting a take over robbery is foolish. In the case that started this discussion there were going to be more then two robbers. They were caught before it happened when the third chickened out or got religion or something. There would have been at least one bad guy outside, maybe more. You make no allowance for that in your straw man argument for taking action. What you see as an obvious advantage most likely isn't in a take over robbery. There is a reason that the police don't charge in shooting in those situations any more.

Do you carry and if so, under what conditions would you use?
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Yes, and I would use force when and only when my observations of what was happening at the scene, my knowledge of my abilities and my experience and training told me that using force was the best or only option. See we can play the silly game all day long of you trying devise a situation where I would have to agree that yes force was called for and I could continue to come up with reasons why it might not be the best course of action. You can play these scenarios out forever. But in the end it's going to come down to what you know or think you know when it happens. To puff one's chest out and declare I'm charging in with my pistol to stop the robbery is just posturing.

Maybe it's time to put my battle rifle back in the vehicle.
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I can see it now..."Um, excuse me fellas, would guys wait there, I need to run back to my vehicle and get something, I'll be right with you." :rolleyes: Just using a little sarcasm to point out that when the fight comes to you it'll most likely be what we used to call a come as you are war. Yes I carried an AR in my squad car, and yes it came out on every call where it seemed in advance that there might be gun play. But it definitely wasn't a reactive weapon. We carry handguns because it's inconvenient and not socially acceptable to carry a rifle everywhere. If it makes you feel better, by all means carry it in your vehicle. But I would base a lot of my planning on actually having it to use in a fight.

The M-203 grenade launcher, which I BELIEVE takes the same ammunition as an M-79, will arm in ten meters. I don't know that you'd get outside your own back blast but I'm almost positive it would arm
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The FM says 14-27 METERS. That's 45 feet, 6 inches to 87 feet, 9 inches. That is a pretty big bank lobby. Having seen 40mm grenades bounce out of the trees and drop on the ground undetonated because they didn't spin enough times to arm after someone thought they could fire it under the canopy, I'm going to stand behind my assertion that it probably wouldn't arm inside a bank lobby.

There are a lot of things to take into consideration before starting a gunfight. In real life things are never going to be as clear and as cut and dried as they are on the internet.
 
From now on, I'm goin' every where with my "Advanced Tactical Wheel Barrel", my “Tactical Tinfoil Helmet”, and my "M6 Tactical Keyboard". If I feel particularly threatened, I can load up with my "Tactical John Deere Mower".

Heck, if I missed the bad buys, I could just run them down with the John Deere, and clean with the wheel barrel. If I never had to engage a bad guy, I could still use this tactical equipment to ride down main street parades like a clown behind the horses, helping to clean up what we see so much in these threads...a whole lotta BS.

Sorry. These threads get way too serious for me. I just sit here and thank God I have never had to be in that degree of self-defense situation. I keep praying I never do...seriously. Ready-on-the-left with my high cap Red Ryder. :)

Doc2005
 
Very good posts, JeffWhite.

The OP got a nice, free, safe wake up call and never got a scratch for his trouble.
Most people have to lose someone or something to get this moment of clarity.

My question is, now that you've had some good advice offered and time to mull over the experience and stop wigging out, what are you going to do with your new view of reality?
 
Ever been in a fight? I'm not talking about the shoving match you had in the second grade, I'm talking about a real fight, one with serious consequences. I find the "hero" persona is very pronounced among people who have no experience with violence and think that the Kel Tec .32 in their pocket is the answer to all of life's tactical problems. It's real easy to sit behind the screen and calmly post about how you will prevail over multiple opponents who have you seriously outgunned. After all it's the internet and the good guys always win.
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Well Jeff White, yes I have been in real fights with very serious consequences. I, on the other hand, will not be so presumptuous as to call you or anyone else on the internet a "keyboard warrior" with a "hero" complex wanting glory since I have absolutely no idea who I am responding to, nor do you.

I fully understand the nature of firearms, their capabilities. I also understand the capabilities of law enforcement, especially my area. I have met many fine, dedicated and capable LEOs but they aren't here. I have also met many that I wouldn't trust to draw the chalk outline around my body. I also understand my own capabilities. While in many bank robberies no one is shot, in many robberies an innocent person is shot. I'd venture to guess that it's a daily occurrence in the US.

The only story that I can think of with similar parameters is the bank robbery in LA where it did not turn out well for anyone. Would it have been different if someone armed with a handgun or a deer rifle in the truck had a clear opportunity to intervene and did so?


In my area calling 911 is not a viable option. The only time that I did, because of a violent domestic down the road, the police took 90 minutes to respond. It may very well be the best option in a a different "scenario".


I also understand that other lives are involved, including my loved one in some of my "little scenarios". This thread was started by someone who was freaked out by an imaginary "little scenario" that could have happened. If you actually read what I had posted you would understand that I did not at any time advocate starting a gunfight in a crowded bank or shooting through a plate glass window. Responding to the threat doesn't necessarily mean shooting although it might, especially if they start shooting unarmed people.
Anytime someone uses a firearm to commit a crime I think it would be wise to assume that they will use it. Situational awareness is a key factor.

Yes, and I would use force when and only when my observations of what was happening at the scene, my knowledge of my abilities and my experience and training told me that using force was the best or only option. See we can play the silly game all day long of you trying devise a situation where I would have to agree that yes force was called for and I could continue to come up with reasons why it might not be the best course of action. You can play these scenarios out forever. But in the end it's going to come down to what you know or think you know when it happens.
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Why don't you give me the same respect or is that just reserved for someone else?
 
what are you going to do with your new view of reality?
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Trade in my Star BM and some cash for a Glock 20. I spent a lot of time at the range today with my Star practicing drawing and firing into a cardboard box two shots at a time from about 15 feet (the distance between my bedroom door and the front door of my home, thinking about home defense), then id put the safety on, put it in my holster whip it out move the safety fire two more, do that till the mag was empty, reload and keep doing that. This gun is new to me, i just barely got it and have only put about 80 rounds through it, i have very limited experience with handguns, ive owned 2 .22s and besides this star, 1 other 9mm handgun a long time ago, while i can get good groups when im focused and taking a normal trip to the range, i wasnt able to do so today. i was alone at the range so i wasnt distracted by things around me just mulling things over. anywho i went to two gun stores today got different peoples opinions on concealed carry and defense calibers and after looking at a bunch of guns have decided maybe i should go for a more modern defensive handgun, at first i considered a Taurus in 357 magnum had it put on hold but ended up changing my mind towards the Glock after thinking about all the safety mechanisms on it (will make me feel better carrying with a round chambered) knowing its in 10mm Auto so its more stopping power than 9mm, while its not as compact as the star it holds more ammunition from a double stacked magazine and ive always heard good things about Glocks (for the most part) and ill need to find a better holster, i was advised to go for something that fits inside pants
 
I'd venture to guess that it's a daily occurrence in the US.

no
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I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that someone being shot in a robbery is not a very common or in fact daily occurence in the US?
 
If you actually read what I had posted you would understand that I did not at any time advocate starting a gunfight in a crowded bank or shooting through a plate glass window.
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Eagle, Jeff White was not alone if he presumed that you were advocating starting a gunfight. Perhaps this was misunderstood:

I think that anytime someone commits a crime like this with a gun you have to assume that they will kill to achieve their ends. It's common knowledge that the time to act is immediately to the threat, not after they gain control. [emphasis added]
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You have since seemed to allude to some kind of an alternative:

Responding to the threat doesn't necessarily mean shooting although it might, especially if they start shooting unarmed people.
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I'm afraid I don't understand. Perhaps you might explain just what kind of alternative response you were envisioning.

Anytime someone uses a firearm to commit a crime I think it would be wise to assume that they will use it.
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Not so sure. I think you can certainly assume that they would be willing to use it. Which means that if you produce a weapon, they will fire--and if you do so against two felons with rifles at the ready, you will lose.

I would not do anything precipitous to turn a robbery into a tragic bloodbath.

I was recently told by a highly trained former police officer who has a CCW license that the only time his gun will ever come out (outside) is when he is about to die. I'm sure he would modify that to cover his wife and children--they weren't there at the time.

Same goes for me.

Matter of fact, that's the law where I live.
 
Wow there's a lot to address in this thread, I'm not really going to try to hit anything but the OP's original freakout.

You can get killed any day. You can get killed in your car, on your motorcycle, you could get killed walking your doggy (yes, i cribbed that last one from Al Pacino.

Local kid I know dropped dead from a heart attack at 33. Guy at a Car dealership up the road from me was sitting at his desk fiddling around and probably thinking about lunch when he was ****canned by a falling Cessna.

Anyway.

Point being, your demise is assured, one way or the other. Should we find ourselves in a situation where we have to fight to live, we should be prepared to do so, but make no mistake, plenty of well prepared people have been hit by buses, ok? The time and manner of our end are never really of our choosing. It sounds like you might benefit from a little spiritual activity to set you at ease. I know that personally, I enjoy life pretty well the less I worry about death, and that's coming from a relatively young man with a heart condition (Transient SVT).

Go for a walk, snuggle the wife and / or the dog. You'll feel better.
 
GREENR8 - " ... but ended up changing my mind towards the Glock after thinking about all the safety mechanisms on it (will make me feel better carrying with a round chambered) knowing its in 10mm Auto so its more stopping power than 9mm, while its not as compact as the star it holds more ammunition from a double stacked magazine and ive always heard good things about Glocks (for the most part) and ill need to find a better holster, i was advised to go for something that fits inside pants
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G-8, if I were you, before investing in that 10MM Glock, I'd make it a point to shoot one at least 50 rounds or so. The 10MM has a much stronger recoil than a 9MM, and I'd bet a lot of money you'd not find yourself practicing much with it. (Yes, I've shot a bunch of rounds through the Glock 10MM.)

Not trying (please, folks!!!!) to get into the "9MM and up" caliber argument, but there is some very good self defense 9MM ammo out there today, that will serve you quite well, if you ever get into a self defense shooting.

As always, the most important thing is ACCURACY, and you'll practice much more with your 9MM, whether a Star, or Glock, or S&W, or SIG, or ______________ fill in the blank, than with that 10MM.

Also, if you have the chance, you should take a self defense shooting course from a good professional s.d. instructor. Should be someone around your area who'd know whom to recommend.

Forget what someone tells you to buy as a concealed holster. Try different types for yourself, depending on the clothes you usually wear, physique, etc. Inside the waistband holsters are NOT for everyone. Do not forget a good, supportive belt. Without that, a holstered gun will soon be very, very uncomfortable.

Forget about "shoulda woulda coulda." Plan for the future possibilities and practice. Staying alert to your surroundings is the main key to staying alive.

My take on it.

L.W.
 
You don't have a grenade launcher for the heck of it let alone assault rifles.
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Spoken like a true gun grabber. I know quite a few people who have these items for the heck of it. Depending on your definition of 'assault rifle' (the news story's definition?) I have a few myself.

I haven't robbed any banks yet...
 
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