I have a fear while carrying concealed.
- Thread starter jlbraun
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hankdatank1362
Member
What about a collapsible baton?
Hell, you could always toss it to him, and then say he's armed, thus making any shooting by you justifiable.
Seriously... check out the DVD "Stun, Stagger, Stop" by Cold Steel, IIRC. It covers baton and walking stick defense.
Hell, you could always toss it to him, and then say he's armed, thus making any shooting by you justifiable.
Seriously... check out the DVD "Stun, Stagger, Stop" by Cold Steel, IIRC. It covers baton and walking stick defense.
walking arsenal
Member
Well, lets analyze this shal we?
You have a fellow, same size or larger.
He's inside 21 feet. Which is roughly the distance he can close in 3 seconds before you can react, draw and fire.
Your verbal with him.
You try and retreat and he follows.
This meets the "I'm asking to be shot" criteria.
Sounds like it's time to start peddling backwards to make more space while waving around some iron. Hollering somthing profound like "Get away or i'll shoot" is good too.
You have to be prepared for the aftermath if you do have to wack the knothead.
Be nice to the cops, but dont tell them anything. Ask for a lawyer.
Like "I want to cooperate but i'm really shaken up and would like to talk to a lawyer first"
They'll probably haul you to the slammer and you may be there for a day or two.
If your not ok with that you should probably rethink your defensive options.
Shooting people is inconvienient.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Personally, I'd ask directly his intentions.
I don't think the internet is your best choice for training.
Handgun retention training will give you some skills to keep your handgun.
If you are armed, and get in a fight, there will be a gun in that fight. If you draw, and he continues to advance, you can expect if he gets ahold of your gun, he will use it on you.
It doesn't matter what we say. You have to make your own choices and decisions, because you will be the one living with them.
I suggest you invest in some professional training. These are questions to ask, debate, and work out in such a setting. This one really isn't appropriate. You don't know any of us, our qualifications, and if something happens to you, we won't be available to help you through the aftermath.
mljdeckard
Member
I'm absolutely with lonestar.
The guy who taught my CCW class did something I think was very smart. He skipped escalation of force and went straight to deadly force. That's a yes or no question, not a 'maybe' or 'if' question.
I conditioned my thinking to assume that if I ever pull to do business, I must be able to convince a jury there was no other option. If this means I have to take a black eye, a busted tooth, or a maybe a broken rib because I didn't have the circumstances lined up, so be it. BUT, if a reasonable person would believe that it wasn't going to end there, It's going to go all the way.
If a pipsqueak who is significantly smaller than my average 5'10", 180, walks up to me and pops me in the eye, I'm not going to draw. But if I'm visiting my hometown, and I draw the ire of the guy who was the high school bully, is now 6'2" and close to 300, whom I saw smash a kid's head into a wall causing injury and massive blood loss during my senior year, gets his finger in my face and starts backing me into a wall, and doesn't even hear me say "Man, seriously, you need to back off," something very bad could happen.
I have had more than a little martial arts training, but if I were that sure it is sufficient, I wouldn't be carrying, would I? They guy who trained me competed against and beat Jim Kelly back in the 70s. He STILL carries.
And yes, bars are nasty places. And yes, I do sometimes go places I wouldn't go if I were unarmed.
Let's lighten up on the guy a little, he asked the question for a reason, let's try to be helpful, not question his motives and resolve.
I recommend, talk to your AG's office.
The guy who taught my CCW class did something I think was very smart. He skipped escalation of force and went straight to deadly force. That's a yes or no question, not a 'maybe' or 'if' question.
I conditioned my thinking to assume that if I ever pull to do business, I must be able to convince a jury there was no other option. If this means I have to take a black eye, a busted tooth, or a maybe a broken rib because I didn't have the circumstances lined up, so be it. BUT, if a reasonable person would believe that it wasn't going to end there, It's going to go all the way.
If a pipsqueak who is significantly smaller than my average 5'10", 180, walks up to me and pops me in the eye, I'm not going to draw. But if I'm visiting my hometown, and I draw the ire of the guy who was the high school bully, is now 6'2" and close to 300, whom I saw smash a kid's head into a wall causing injury and massive blood loss during my senior year, gets his finger in my face and starts backing me into a wall, and doesn't even hear me say "Man, seriously, you need to back off," something very bad could happen.
I have had more than a little martial arts training, but if I were that sure it is sufficient, I wouldn't be carrying, would I? They guy who trained me competed against and beat Jim Kelly back in the 70s. He STILL carries.
And yes, bars are nasty places. And yes, I do sometimes go places I wouldn't go if I were unarmed.
Let's lighten up on the guy a little, he asked the question for a reason, let's try to be helpful, not question his motives and resolve.
I recommend, talk to your AG's office.
Sylvan-Forge
Member
Time for some soul searching
jlbraun,
Might I suggest a few things?
First, do not expect yourself to be omniscient.
On the other hand, seek to further develope your intuition.
Close your eyes grasshopper and listen for subtleties, nuance.
Sometimes empathy can be a great tool for diffusing an agressor, as can a swift kick to the nads or palm to the chin.
Sometimes the only thing you are left with is to hoist the black flag and do what you must.
Legal stuff would be the last thing I would think about.
But take another gander at MK11's post and consider if you would be comfortable with a less-lethal capability aside from hand-to-hand.
For your reading pleasure,
Take a look a Colonel John Boyd's OODA concept.
All else fails, you could toss hankdatank's baton to the perp and proceed to ventilate him! I keed I keed!
May your quest be enlightening.
jlbraun,
Might I suggest a few things?
First, do not expect yourself to be omniscient.
On the other hand, seek to further develope your intuition.
Close your eyes grasshopper and listen for subtleties, nuance.
Sometimes empathy can be a great tool for diffusing an agressor, as can a swift kick to the nads or palm to the chin.
Sometimes the only thing you are left with is to hoist the black flag and do what you must.
Legal stuff would be the last thing I would think about.
But take another gander at MK11's post and consider if you would be comfortable with a less-lethal capability aside from hand-to-hand.
For your reading pleasure,
Take a look a Colonel John Boyd's OODA concept.
All else fails, you could toss hankdatank's baton to the perp and proceed to ventilate him! I keed I keed!
May your quest be enlightening.
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Hand To Hand
I think that the advice of avoiding the situation at all costs is right, but your question is "if that fails" what? I think where (on your body) you carry could be an issue to consider. It it is outside waistband at 3:00, well you may have a problem, or even anywhere behind the hip. I personally think that the appendix position would be easier to defend your gun than some other positions, and IWB would help to keep it out of the BG's reach.
It sounds like your martial arts training will help you but what I might suggest is additional training in some close quarters form like Jujitsu. I personally have no experience in martial arts or Jujitsu, but the issue would be keeping his hands in control where he would not be able to grab your gun. I would suggest wrestling, but I would guess that most people aren't going to take up a sport so intense in their adult life. Wrestling is the only sport that you can practice full speed for hours on end and not really hurt an individual. By practicing at full speed you develop muscle memory that allows you to reproduce your actions by instinct. Similar to drawing your gun, sweeping the safety ect. My point being if you are practicing your martial arts and you eye gouge your practice partner or give him an all out round house to the face he may not want to practice anymore. Jujitsu may help you to develop reactions that are second nature to you to stop the threat.
Sorry for going off, but you may be over-thinking the matter, but the same question has crossed my mind and everyone who carries needs to be aware of the possibility of a BG going for your gun.
Good Luck and Be Safe!
I think that the advice of avoiding the situation at all costs is right, but your question is "if that fails" what? I think where (on your body) you carry could be an issue to consider. It it is outside waistband at 3:00, well you may have a problem, or even anywhere behind the hip. I personally think that the appendix position would be easier to defend your gun than some other positions, and IWB would help to keep it out of the BG's reach.
It sounds like your martial arts training will help you but what I might suggest is additional training in some close quarters form like Jujitsu. I personally have no experience in martial arts or Jujitsu, but the issue would be keeping his hands in control where he would not be able to grab your gun. I would suggest wrestling, but I would guess that most people aren't going to take up a sport so intense in their adult life. Wrestling is the only sport that you can practice full speed for hours on end and not really hurt an individual. By practicing at full speed you develop muscle memory that allows you to reproduce your actions by instinct. Similar to drawing your gun, sweeping the safety ect. My point being if you are practicing your martial arts and you eye gouge your practice partner or give him an all out round house to the face he may not want to practice anymore. Jujitsu may help you to develop reactions that are second nature to you to stop the threat.
Sorry for going off, but you may be over-thinking the matter, but the same question has crossed my mind and everyone who carries needs to be aware of the possibility of a BG going for your gun.
Good Luck and Be Safe!
Devonai
Hey, that's good to know. We'll just send rookie cops to a dojo for a few months, and then we won't have to hear these war stories about how hard it is to subdue an unarmed man who doesn't want to quit. At one cop per perp, we'll save tax dollars, because we won't need so many officers on each shift. And we won't need as much insurance, because there is no way anyone can get shot doing these stops. Excellent!
ezypikns
Member
Illegal in the state of Texas. I checked.
walking arsenal
Member
And if your lucky that first "pop" wont end you. Since when does size matter so much? Just because your bigger doesnt mean the little guy isn't dangerous or doesnt have some skill.
I think the reason I would *not* carry pepper spray is to avoid the scenario of what -if and woulda-shoulda-coulda's. I am not trained in self defense hth combat, and as such, I have no confidence in my ability to defend myself hth. Therefore, there is only 1 level between peace, and fear for my life or serious bodily injury.
SO for me, avoid the issue in the first place, retreat/call for help, and after that, I don't know that I have any other options than to threaten and/or shoot if that fails to stop the situation.
(I am not advocating shooting anybody by any means, all I am looking at is the legal and moral issues afterwards from the grieving widow/er).
SO for me, avoid the issue in the first place, retreat/call for help, and after that, I don't know that I have any other options than to threaten and/or shoot if that fails to stop the situation.
(I am not advocating shooting anybody by any means, all I am looking at is the legal and moral issues afterwards from the grieving widow/er).
LightningJoe
Member
I'd be skeptical of those who glibly advise you to shoot unarmed people.
If your opponent is unarmed, you're almost certainly better off fighting him barehanded, even if you end up taking a beating. You must have a weapon and a mode of carry that allows you to conceal and control your weapon during a wrestling match. A small gun in your front pocket seems like the best option.
If your opponent is unarmed, you're almost certainly better off fighting him barehanded, even if you end up taking a beating. You must have a weapon and a mode of carry that allows you to conceal and control your weapon during a wrestling match. A small gun in your front pocket seems like the best option.
VARifleman
Member
Yeah, someone missed my post earlier in the thread. A friend of my former boxing instructor knocked out 3 big guys in a row with a cross to the face. Lean Muscle + well trained boxer = a little guy that's very underestimated. I don't underestimate punching anymore; it is deadly force.
LightningJoe
Member
The weaker man can win a physical fight, but he probably doesn't have long to do so. If he can put the stronger guy away with one punch, that'll work. But if it goes much longer than that, the stronger guy has an enormous advantage. In a typical fight, physical strength is almost everything. Some fights aren't typical, of course.
MNgoldenbear
Member
Good advice here for the most part. Differences of opinion exist, but most are situational or preference related. I'd challenge the notion that jlbruan should not be CCW unless this is resolved. I believe that you are continuing to explore possible situations and trying to reach moral, legal, and tactical conclusions. No way to be sure you've covered every "what if", but keep asking and training and getting sound input to help you make your best decisions. I also think that the suggestions that this is a simple issue (the "just shoot" view) are oversimplifying, whether they are in fact that sure of their response to the situation, have not really thought out the situation, or are simply making a show of bravado.
Geronimo45
Member
"If your opponent is unarmed, you're almost certainly better off fighting him barehanded"
Unless you've got a police-type retention holster, I don't see it as a good idea. Just lying down on a couch, you're liable to have things roll out of your pockets - in a fighting situation, there's no telling whether you'll be on your feet or on your backside. You may be able to trust yourself not to shoot this guy, but can you trust HIM not to shoot you, if your gun comes out? If he's picking a fight for no reason, he's already got some issues.
I don't see any problem with carrying OC, assuming your state doesn't ban the stuff. You could carry a bullwhip, too, if you like - I believe it's an 'agricultural implement', not a weapon per se.
Unless you've got a police-type retention holster, I don't see it as a good idea. Just lying down on a couch, you're liable to have things roll out of your pockets - in a fighting situation, there's no telling whether you'll be on your feet or on your backside. You may be able to trust yourself not to shoot this guy, but can you trust HIM not to shoot you, if your gun comes out? If he's picking a fight for no reason, he's already got some issues.
I don't see any problem with carrying OC, assuming your state doesn't ban the stuff. You could carry a bullwhip, too, if you like - I believe it's an 'agricultural implement', not a weapon per se.
M2 Carbine
member
The very first CHL shooting in Texas was a unarmed thug being shot and killed because he was hitting the CHL holder.
And it was ruled a "good shooting".
You DO NOT have to take a beating before you shoot some thug.
I will NOT take a punch from someone, that can clearly hurt me, before I shoot them.
I won't be the aggressor but I will stop a dangerous aggressor, by shooting if necessary.
Thinking that you can fight your way out of an attack is a foolish plan unless you are WELL trained and capable.
By the time that you decide that you are injured enough to be legal to shoot you probably won't be able to.
And it was ruled a "good shooting".
You DO NOT have to take a beating before you shoot some thug.
I will NOT take a punch from someone, that can clearly hurt me, before I shoot them.
I won't be the aggressor but I will stop a dangerous aggressor, by shooting if necessary.
Thinking that you can fight your way out of an attack is a foolish plan unless you are WELL trained and capable.
By the time that you decide that you are injured enough to be legal to shoot you probably won't be able to.
What I would do . . .
I'd spray his face with 10% OC and retreat as quietly as possible and as far away as possible. I would also hit the voice memo button on my cell phone to record the event.
My 16 rounds of 115gr GDHP+p+ from my G17 would be the LAST resort.
I'd spray his face with 10% OC and retreat as quietly as possible and as far away as possible. I would also hit the voice memo button on my cell phone to record the event.
My 16 rounds of 115gr GDHP+p+ from my G17 would be the LAST resort.
Ilovemyglock
Member
The best thiing to do...and i know its not macho......but back down. say sorry,or say i dont want to fight. In my younger days i would have traded punches with anyone. But now that I own a home and have children, I think twice about things. Plus i had to pay restitution when i was 19 yrs old to a fella who had to get his jaw wired, to the sum of $41k was the final doctors fee.
MaterDei
Member
If you're afraid for no real reason while you're carrying then you probably shouldn't be carrying at all. You should be living your life just as you would if you were not carrying. You should only be more comfortable in the fact that you could defend yourself if needed, nothing more.
LightningJoe
Member
I seem to recall that that first CHL shooting in Texas was by an old or handicapped guy in his car stuck in traffic. An able-bodied man on his feet who shot an unarmed attacker might be up against a lot of legal problems. That won't be me. If I thought somebody getting tough with me was going to force me to draw and shoot, then I would regard carrying a gun as a serious liability.
The sad fact of the matter here is that you can still get in a heap of trouble just for drawing on the clown if you don't believe he is trying to kill you. :banghead: You can't pistol whip him, you can't hit him with brass knuckles, you can't even soften his acorns without almost expecting a legal engagement. Hell, he may have a severe allergy to pepper spray and keel over dead anyway. Then you're the a**hole that was carrying two lethal weapons looking for trouble even though you were only going to pick up your dry cleaning.
The only thing you can do is keep your nose clean, stay away from places where decent people shouldn't be, and always keep an eye open for a way out. Your sidearm is only there for when those three criteria aren't enough.
If you go and get in your car and he vandalizes it while you are trying to leave the only thing that you can do is call Johnny Law and hope that he isn't too busy to look into this matter while Cleatus is still lingering around. (You still get no guarantee that he will be required to fix your car.)
There is no good answer.
The only thing you can do is keep your nose clean, stay away from places where decent people shouldn't be, and always keep an eye open for a way out. Your sidearm is only there for when those three criteria aren't enough.
If you go and get in your car and he vandalizes it while you are trying to leave the only thing that you can do is call Johnny Law and hope that he isn't too busy to look into this matter while Cleatus is still lingering around. (You still get no guarantee that he will be required to fix your car.)
There is no good answer.
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