I just bought my first gun tonight

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Bishop

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Hi, i'm posting this in shotguns because i just bought one.

Basically, last week a crackhead broke into my apartment while my wife and I were sleeping. He forced a rear window open, and climbed on the gas meters to enter the place. My wife is a light sleeper and she woke up just as he was entering our bedroom. We had a typewriter case at the base of the door to keep our rabbit from biting the door, and when he forced the door open, the case fell over loudly, which scared the rabbit into running into all the walls, making a lot of noise. The guy was spooked and he ran and jumped out the window, and broke a few vases on his way out.

I called the police and they took over an hour to arrive. I live in downtown atlanta... so that didn't give me a lot of confidence.

At the time of the break-in, i had nothing to protect me or my wife. The day after, i bought an aluminum bat, but today i bought my first gun, a shotgun. It's a single-shot, short barreled(around 18") harrington and richardson Topper, in 12 gauge with a wooden stock. I bought it from an old friend of my parents, who is a gun enthusiast. He had a similar gun in a 20 gauge, but I chose the 12 because it seemed like a better gun overall and i thought it might be more versatile.

Anyways, my question is about the ammo i should get for it. I'd like to get some shells that are light loaded so i won't penetrate the sheetrock in my apartment, as there are 4 other units here. It might also help the 12 ga. recoil for my wife, as she is very small. I'm pretty tall.

Does anyone have any advice on what kind of shells i should buy, or should i have them made up at a gun shop? Or just any general first time gun owning advice?
 
I don't know where to begin. If you're a first time gun owner, the absolute best advise I guess is....practice. Practice as often as possible. Practice using the load you choose.Find a range that lets you practice in low-light. Get your wife to practice too as she might be alone the next time something happens. If you can afford it, take some professional classes. A person with a $100 gun and $1000 in training is far deadlier than someone with an $1100 gun and no training.

Based on your criteria, I'd recommend any of the reduced-velocity 2+3/4" buckshot loads, Hornandy, Federal, ETC all make one that clocks ~1000fps---they're less likely to overpenetrate, but pack enough power to be great defense loads.

While a single shot 12ga isn't exactly my 1st choice in home defense, it can do the job. If/when you have to use it, you'll react exactly as you trained yourself to.

Also check your laws, here in Texas we have great laws pertaining to self-defense, I've no idea how Atlanta's are.
 
wow....... an hour for police responce? i guess that holds true there about 911 being a police sponsered dial-a-prayer.......i single shot wouldn't be first choice either.... lots of great advice here already.... i'm so glad i live in such a small town that if anyone tried to break in i'd probably know their name............
 
Single shot 12ga. guns are rather light and the recoil can be heavy. While I use a 20ga. myself (pump gun) and would have recommended the 20 over the 12 in your case, I would stick with regular low base (Dove - Rabbit) 12ga. shot loads for practice, and these can also serve just fine for short range defense.

If getting away from regular shot size light loads, the next step would be perhaps some low recoil buckshot.

I would stay away from magnum loads, steel shot, or even heavy field loads.
 
THR member sm does good work with a single shot SG about the same as
yours, Bishop. I expect him to chime in soon about this. Listen to him, and also to Dave McCracken.

I recommend either buckshot or slugs only for defense. Birdshot just will not get the job done. While the single shot is not my first choice, it is a great leap from a baseball bat or empty hands. I'd reccomend getting one of those 5 rd butt cuffs that go on the stock to hold extra rounds.
Based on your criteria, I'd recommend any of the reduced-velocity 2+3/4" buckshot loads, Hornandy, Federal, ETC all make one that clocks ~1000fps---they're less likely to overpenetrate, but pack enough power to be great defense loads.
Click to expand...

If you can find this, it would work great. Don't forget to pattern your loads at the range to see where they hit, and get familier with the gun.

And I am forgetting my manners. Welcome to THR. Here is one of the most polite forums on the internet. And we cover anything and everything relating to guns and the right to keep and bear arms.
 
Bishop, welcome to THR. Welcome to the world of gun ownership; though I'm sorry your entry to owning guns was hastened by such circumstances.

Penetration is always a tradeoff. You want enough penetration to make a hit that stops an attacker, yet you have concern for neighbors. In general any load capable of good penetration on a threat will also penetrate sheet rock - unfortunately there is no magic shotgun load.

Shoot a few rounds of skeet to get used to handling the shotgun - make a post up in rallying point and I'm sure Atl. area shooters will help you with places to do this. As PracticeFreedom notes, lots of practice is what you want.

The H&R Topper is a great little shotgun, so no worries there. Folks like Dave McC, sm, and Lee Lapin should be here to post within the next several hours. They're all very experienced, and I'll let them give you further info and load suggestions. I hope you'll have fun with the sporting side of your new defensive tool as well.

Stay safe

-Uga
 
12ga 2-3/4" 00-buck, (9 pellets) unplated shot.

Supposedly these are good for HD. Good thing I've never had to find out
Click to expand...

You have patterned this load, haven't you?

Don't just stuff some buck into the magazine and expect it to save your hide if the SHTF. Practice, Practice, Practice. BA/UU/R (that's buy ammo/use up/repeat).
 
Welcome to THR. I'm glad I'm glad nobody was hurt during the break in . There are many opinions about which load is best for home defense. Personally, I use Winchester Managed recoil 00 buck. However, as others have said in the previous posts, you need to try several loads to see which one patterns the best. You might also think about adding a shell holder to the buttstock to keep extra rounds handy. I've never fired a single-shot shotgun, so I don't know how quickly they can be reloaded, but it's probably something else you can practice while at the range.
 
Bishop,
Welcome to THR!

Feel free to PM me.

Forgive me, as I do not know your level or your wife's level of skill or experience with firearms.
So I am going to start at the bottom rung on the ladder, not necessarily for you, also for any other new folks that might read this thread. Apply as need, feel free to post information, or to PM me. :)

-Is this gun an Adult or Youth Stock?
-Please look at the side of the barrel and let us know if it says "Modified" ,or --any other Choke markings.
-Can you you get the 20 gauge still without a lot of hassle?
[I get the impression this is a used gun bought from individual, and not a gun store purchase]

~
12 gauge is going to recoil more in that light of a gun.
Rule of 96 : payload to weight of gun and recoil.
96 ounces divided by 16 ounces in a pound equals 6 pounds.
6 pound gun firing a 1 ounce load is manageable.
~

20 gauge standard target, hunting load is 7/8 of an ounce.

It is suggested a serious situation firearm be set up so the smaller person in a home can effectively use.
Meaning, not only physically smaller, also less experienced, age, etc.

So a 20 bore is going to have less felt recoil and your wife will be able to better to handle recoil with light target loads to better familiarize herself with the gun.

Apologizes to your wife, I am again replying from the lowest rung on the ladder, for not only you, also any new folks with similar needs/ questions.

~

-Find a seasoned shooter to assist with proper manual of arms, and how to maintain and inspect this shotgun.
Call or write to get owners/instruction manual from H&R/ NEF.
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/topper.aspx

I am betting you have the fixed modified choke and this is Excellent!!!

Get a hard copy of legal statutes in your jurisdiction in the use of lethal force, and any statures on gun storage.

-DO NOT BUY:
Winchester Promotional Dove/ Quail loads,
Winchester Reduced Recoil loads,
or 3" shells.
12 or 20 gauge.

DO BUY:
12 gauge-
2 3/4" shells only.
Fed 9 pellet 00 buckshot
Rem 9 pellet 00 buckshot
Rem #1 Buckshot

Fed Value pack of 1 1/8 oz loads,
Rem, Fed, Fiocchi, Estate 7/8 loads. Either the quality loads used for skeet,
or light "hunting" , "sportsmans" loads.

The 7/8 oz loads are Great for learning this gun, and shoot some awesome patterns , as does that 1 1/8 oz Fed load

20 gauge:
2 3/4" shells
Fed or Rem #3 Buckshot, and out of that fixed mod barrel, tosses some awesome patterns!!

Practice with again Skeet loads from Rem, Fed, Fiocchi, Estate.

What these single shotgun are , are proven shotguns with a history of putting game on the table, and keeping the home front safe.

Light, easy to handle, reliable, tough as nails, and proven.


Now I have concerns and ideas on keeping that Apt Safe.


Steve
 
It's a single-shot, short barreled(around 18") harrington and richardson Topper, in 12 gauge with a wooden stock.
Click to expand...

sm , I'm thinking that this is likely a trimmed barrel which would have no choke. I don't think the old Topper model ever came in an 18" choked tube ( I could be wrong)

Just curious also : Specificaly No Winchester , including their reduced recoil buck ? Is that for patterning performance or some other reason ?

PS: That reminds me : Bishop , make sure that barrel is at least 18" long measured from the inside against the breach face. Any shorter than 18" is a problem.
 
First, welcome aboard.

Second, depending on any firearm that one hasn't run lots of rounds through is a dangerous illusion. Go shoot yours, starting off with the lightest shot loads you can find. 7/8 oz loads are now available for the 12 gauge from many makers.

The H&R is an excellent single shot, one was my first shotgun. But, they are very light. The NEF 12 here is similar, and weighs a bit over 5.5 lbs. It kicks hard with heavier loads.

Yours is not my first choice for a defensive arm for new shooters, but it's what you have. So, go shoot it. A few rounds of skeet will acquaint both of you with the operation and feel of the weapon.

Third, any firearm is a tool of last resort. Make it harder for intruders to intrude. You may also want to put a good locking device on that bedroom door.

HTH.....
 
Bishop,

Welcome to THR. I'm sorry you come to us under the circumstances that prevail, but I hope we can offer you some help and reassurance. That's a scary way to learn just how much each of us needs to be able to protect ourselves and our families- congratulations on stepping up to the job. Some folks just never manage to get past the puddle-on the-floor stage after something like this happens to them.

One lesson you have already learned is that any gun is better than no gun at all. While a single shot shotgun is not what some folks here would choose for the job of defending hearth and home, do not be discouraged about owning one. No matter what gun someone owns, they are pretty much limited to one shot at the time. For centuries humans made do quite well with muzzle-loading single shots, you at least have the advantage of a breech loader with fixed ammunition. It will certainly do the job, if the shooter can hit with it.

I second the advice that you measure the barrel to make sure it is more than 18" long, and that the whole gun is more than 26" long (TITLE 18, USC, CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(6). That is a federal requirement and no one at all has any sense of humor at all about violations. I'd figure if your friend is a genuine gun enthusiast he would get it right, but it only takes a yardstick to make sure. You need to be sure.

The great thing about single barrel shotguns is that they are inexpensive, lightweight, simple to operate, as safe as any firearm can be and tough as rocks.

The bad thing about single barrel shotguns is that they are lightweight.

What that means is that they will recoil more than a heavier gun with the same loads. So you will want to be careful about choosing loads for it so as not to develop a flinch when shooting it. The light loads that Steve/sm suggested are good ones, especially the target loads with 1 ounce or even 7/8 ounce of shot if you can find them. They are definitely worth looking for, I can assure you.

The first thing to do with your shotgun (after you apply the yardstick to it that is) is to get completely comfortable manipulating it. By "manipulating" I mean loading, unloading, cocking, and very importantly, UNcocking it without actually firing it. For this task I'd suggest you get some snap caps or dummy shells. A company called A-Zoom makes the snap caps I use (1-800-423-9704, http://www.lymanproducts.com/azoom/index.htm ), Fiocchi makes dummy loads ( http://www.fiocchiusa.com/cat_blank.php ), dummies are available from Brownells (Stock #367-025-512
12 ga, 2-3/4", per 5, http://www.brownells.com/ ) or inert polymer dummy shells can be had from http://www.takesafetyhome.com/ . No matter what, do not practice manipulating your gun with live ammunition except for live fire on a safe firing range.

Safety is a big issue where firearms are concerned. You'll never hear the end of safety when involved with an experienced shooter, because every experienced shooter knows the value of good safety habits. Develop good safety habits early! Here are all the rules you need to know- http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html . I'm using the link from our sister site, The Firing Line, because the link in our own library here at THR isn't working right now. Study these four rules, make them a part of your musculature and nervous system, and as long as you observe them fully they will work for you to prevent accidents.

That's likely enough for one post, I'll hold off unless you have other specific questions. Feel free to PM me if you want.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
Bishop,
As others have said, welcome on board!
Sorry you had to have such an event to bring you to the world of firearms but now that you are here we can probably help you a lot.

Now it may sound like I'm beating on you as I go along...I'm not. However there are some very serious things that need to be addressed and addressed right now. If you already know this stuff then I apologize but I'd rather mention these details for the safety of everyone concerned.

#1) Guns (any guns) are tools. They are NOT magic wands. They require training to use properly. If you aren't going to commit to the training then sell the gun and find another option.

The other #1) LEARN THE FOUR RULES OF GUN SAFETY AND OBEY THEM AT ALL TIMES! If you are going to have a gun in the house your family needs to learn the rules as well. This is, again, for your OWN safety.
 
Hey everyone, thanks for the kind words and advice.

PracticeFreedom, thanks for the advice on practicing. I'm going to go out to the range as soon as i get some shells to test.

i guess that holds true there about 911 being a police sponsered dial-a-prayer...
Click to expand...
yeah the police response was pathetic. they called me back 2 times saying, "we're at the front door, come to the front door sir!" and i said "i'm at the front door, and you guys aren't even on the street..." then when i called 911 back(had to call 5 times total), they said "we're showing officers on the scene, sir." Police seemed only mildly interested when they arrived until i had to interrupt to tell them that i didn't see the guy leave and the house hadn't been cleared yet. Then they went into COPS mode, but it was a joke. I feel like if they had gotten there even within 20 minutes, they might have caught the guy.

You might also think about adding a shell holder to the buttstock to keep extra rounds handy.
Click to expand...
I have one, that came with the gun. Definitely needed with the single shot.

I went to sleep right after posting this, so it's a lot to reply to! i really appreciate everyones advice. This is a really nice forum. :)

sm, thanks for taking the time to reply, i'll try to answer some of your questions. Thanks for the advice on what and what not to buy.

The top of the barrel says Topper Model, then 12 GA. 3" FULL

heres pics:
DSCN3803.jpg

DSCN3804.jpg

I don't think it has a choke. I can't tell if someone sawed this one off, but it has the brass ball sight at the end of the barrel.

I can probably get the 20 ga. still, but i don't want to lose my 12 now that i've had it... i want to shoot it with some different rounds, then i'll probobly just buy another 20 ga. if the 12 is too much for my wife. Shes about the size of your average 9th grader, so the 12 might just be too much gun.

and about apartment security, I've just put up bars on the windows that were broken into. I'm thinking about maybe some of the home depot DIY security alarm stuff for windows etc, because i dont think i can afford monitoring right now. Has anyone used this stuff?
 
Thanks for the replies. Lee, I read the safety rules over and i will print them out to keep with the gun until i have fully learned them. I know thats important. I'll be sure get some dummy shells, and i'll measure the gun as well.

I realize a single shot is not the best home defense weapon, but I'd like to get another gun when i learn more about what i would like, and what would suit me best. Maybe the way this one handles will help me decide what direction to go for my next gun.

Thanks for the link, kelly, and thanks for the additional safety warning, ZeSpectre. I haven't heard all this before, thats what i'm here for.:eek:
 
Welcome to the forum! and to gun ownership,even tho it came about the 'wrong way'.
If you decide to get another gun,I'd suggest it be in the same guage to avoic confusion,especially since you are both new to guns.
they are kinda spendy,but for your wife you might find some Aguila 'mini shells' to start out with.very low recoil and just plain fun to shoot close-up targets with.just buy a box along with regular shells,then 'graduate' to the regular shells during the shooting session.
as said,learn the self defense laws of your city/state.In some cases your better off with a baseball bat,unfortunately.

as ;you've already learned,we must ALL protect ourselves these days,nobody is gonna do it for us.
 
You might want to get a hold of some Aguila mini shells, as these have lower recoil, and have no problem in break open shotguns (they don't cycle in many pumps or semi-autos, however). Plus, you can keep 10 of them on your shell holder since they're so short, just stick one in each end of each shell holder tube.
 
Also, since you said you lived in an apartment, and I'm guessing you aren't allowed to make physical changes to it, you could pick up something like these inexpensive peel and stick window and door alarms.
 
Based on My experiences and observatons:

mnrivrat,
I do not trust Winchester Ammunition.
Understand I have ordered by the Pallet both new factory shells and Win reloading components over the years.

1. Promo loads with cheesy base metal -
seen w-a-y too many out of spec shells, non-reliable ignition of primer, ejection, and extraction problems.
Add, hearing and reading of so many problems from others.


2.Reduced Recoil has a plastic "ball".
Absolutely dangerous ricochet!
We have enough serious concerns with lethal projectiles, including the wad.
WE don't need the shooter getting hurt from that plastic ball bouncing back and hitting shooter, which HAS occured.


3.Win "Had" the best Compression formed hull, in the AA.
This Hull set the standard for 40 + years. Machine broke [says Win] and instead of fixing this machine that made this hull, Win went to HS design which is essentially a two pc design and not the quality of AA.



Re: Aguila mini shells.
NO

These do not show consistent patterning, pattern density, shooting POA/POI.
Depth of penetration AEB [as evidenced by] Shooting Dirt, Critters, and meat such as hams, beef and turkey [meat dept] show ineffective, reliable performance.

While there is a place for these, like in shorter chambered guns to allow one to fire off a Memorial round for a family member passed, novelty, "cute" - I do not recommend.

A. New shooters,Bishop and Wife needs correct basic fundamentals NOW.
Simple, Simple, Simple.
They need affordable , quality ammunition they can buy locally.
I do not believe in cluttering the New Shooters mind with too much, there is already Sensory Overload from being busted into, securing the home, getting a gun, 4 rules of Safety, and ...NO new shooter needs correct basic fundamental, take the baby steps,learn to walk.

B. I think out the box.
IF...IF Bishop's shells have to be used in another person's gun, Mini Shells ARE Not what I want Bishop or his wife to toss to someone.
2 3/4" shells will fit any gun in 12, 20 anyone needing to assist these two in a crisis, [Riot, Civil Unrest...]
I do not want Bishop or his Wife to have these shells if during a Civil Unrest, and being in possession of a repeater [pump or semi] grabbing a Mini shell.

I have seen what happens when Serious Matters happens and Mini shells, and 3", 3.5" inchs are "being passed out" or " all we got".

Logistics.
 
My gut is screaming!

Bishop,

When my gut screams, instinct, I pay attention.

Lee and others seem to agree. We are not sure of that gun.

I am going to be so bold and step into "meddlin'" which I do not do, or advocate, except when Shooter Safety comes into play.

Choke is "constriction" near the muzzle (where projectiles exit). Fixed Choke means the barrel is machined with this constriction.
Basically the metal has been machined. Think of a pipe, plastic, or cardboard "tube" where inside diameters change, and exterior diameter is the same.

That gun is marked Full. That is NOT the length of a H&R Topper Full choked Barrel.
LEGAL is the Serious Concern as Lee posted.
BATFE will do serious nasty things and you WILL lose any Gun rights, pay a fine and go to jail if that gun does not meet LEGAL.

Secondary is with no choke, the effectiveness is diminished.

I don't want to know what you paid for that gun, but I a STRONGLY suggesting you take it back ASAP.

Responsible Firearm Ownership means among other things - NOT letting a new shooter get started off on the wrong foot and especially going to jail, getting hurt.

Bishop,
Post ASAP in General you and the wife need to meet a THR member ASAP in your area this weekend.
I am serious.

I know money is tight, but I know BGs, and if they came in once, they will do so again.
If not the same one, another one will and often better educated about your Apt. Meaning first guy will have a partner, or second guy will be told about your set up from first BG and first BG is not wanting to be recognized.

Meet a THR This weekend.
As much as I hate to suggest using plastic to buy a gun, I am.

Get a THR member to assist you in getting a 20 ga Maverick at least.
Youth Bantam, these guns are pump guns and work.

870 20 ga Express is my first recommendation.

Heck even a THR member going to a Pawn Shop and finding a quailty used pump 20 gauge, with a stock that fits the wife.

New single shots run about $100, if nothing else get the H&R Topper 20 ga.
At least Legal, and one cannot put a price on Freedom and piece of mind.
 
Excellent advice from all, so I only have a few things to add.

I had the exact same shotgun years ago, but I cut the barrel off to get it to that length. The recoil was absolutely brutal with anything but the very lightest loads. If you're an inexperienced shooter, this gun is very likely to cause you to develop a "flinch", and that will throw your shooting accuracy way off.

The H&R is marvelously simple and reliable and can be reloaded and fired very quickly, but this will take a LOT of practice. Missing your first shot and fumbling to reload in the dark while being charged by a maniac is a formula for great tragedy. Practice reloading in pitch darkness or with your eyes closed until you can do it without thinking. Remember you'll likely be half asleep and disoriented at your time of greatest need, so your brain must be capable of doing this on autopilot.

Keep the gun well-secured whenever there are kids in the house, and good luck.
 
Security

Dave,
Allow me drift.
I 'sorta' kicked into a mode I am known to kick into, and you and Lee know why I do.

Bishop,

Windows: Battery drill and nails.
Drill holes into window track, these you will insert nails and window cannot be raised.
4 holes total. One pair in "shut" position, the other about 2" to allow air to vent.

Patio Door:
Watch the glass!
Battery drill, longer nails.
Drill a hole at top of door, that goes through door and track
Repeat at bottom.

Open door about 2" to allow air to vent, and drill a hole in track to allow this.

Real easy to lift a Patio door off its track, hence the reason to do both top and bottom.

Front Door.
Simple wooden door stop pushed up/under door and door cannot be opened.
Bedroom door can be done this way as well when asleep.
Works for hotel/motel travel too.

See a Mom&Pop locksmith and show him from their inventory the lock and door set up you have.
These folks can share what door chains, door bars and such they have they know works on your door, door jamb and all.

Lights.
Not uncommon for a couple to work different shifts.

Use lights on a timer when away and at home to let BGs know someone is up.
If this means leaving front light on, and TV on (no sound,) so lights from TV flickering, do it.

Peep hole.
If need get the Mom&Pop Locksmith to show you a better one than standard Apt issue.

I have other ideas, these will get you started.


Steve
 
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