I Just Couldn't Do It

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Flyboy, I think you did OK, don't let the lap-dogs of the Republican Party who frequent this message board get you down. To them, if you vote for anyone other than a Republican, you made a mistake. These people long ago quit worrying about the message, and just decided to vote Republican no matter what.

I think Bush is terrible, the worst president we have had since I started voting in 1980. I really didn't want to vote for him either, but in the end when I was faced with the reality that it would either be him or Kerry, I caved in and voted for Bush anyway.

So I have now voted twice for the worst president in the last twenty year. I have voted for a president who has expanded federal welfare more than anyone since LBJ. He has expanded government bureaucracy and size more than any president in recent history. Heck, he even signs laws that he thinks are un-Constitutional, so I know he must not care much about his oath of office that requires him to protect the Constitution.

So here I sit, having voted for Bush yesterday, and feeling very unhappy about it... I know the worst from Bush is yet to come. It is a personal judgement what to do in the voting booth. I think you took a prinicipled stand.
 
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"I think Bush is terrible, the worst president we have had since I started voting in 1980."

Lone_Gunman,
After noticing your name and signature, LG, I have a hard time understanding your position. Maybe you should change both. Not a flame, just an observation.

Also, by this quote, are you also saying that you didnt like Reagan, either?
 
Leatherneck:

Somebody explain to this simple Jarhead how, exactly, a vote that is not cast affects the election? Wackos.

Sure, it's easy. It's the classic "If your not for us, you're against us" line of reasoning. Which is, of course, complete garbage.
 
Browns Fan, not sure what your point of confusion is.

Reagan was an excellent president.

I stand by my opinion that Bush II is the worst since since 1980. In other words, compared to Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton, I think Bush has done a worse overall job. I am no fan of Clinton, don't get me wrong, but he did not get a lot done, since he was too busy chasing interns.

By "worst" I mean Bush has done more harm to the Constitution than anyone since 1980.

I voted for him knowing this, as Kerry would have even been worse than Bush.
 
I held my nose, suppressed my rising gorge...and voted for the Shrub.

While Republican policies make me nauseous;Democratic policies invoke active vomiting.

Ballot access in Oklahoma is difficult. The Libertarian Party had to take the State of Georgia to federal court years ago to achieve it. The statutory requirements at the time required almost all of the registered voters in the state to sign a petition.

Our state courts said that was OK by them.

Having achieved ballot access the LP must garner a certain percentage of votes in at least one statewide election.
 
I have a lot more respect for those who decide not to vote than for those who vote as a matter of ritual without knowing what the heck they are voting for.

Along similar lines, to those who stayed home because they could not stomach either candidate, I say "good for you."

I voted for Bush because I agree with many of his ideas - although he is by no means perfect (his signing McCain Feingold was a travesty). And I am mighty happy that Kerry got his pompous butt kicked. I can't wait to see his long face get even longer as he delivers the concession speech... :evil:
 
I still cannot understand why someone who owns guns, and would prefer to keep them, wouldnt ENTHUSIASTICALLY vote for Bush. He IS the pro-gun candidate. I guess it may because I agree with most of his positions.
 
Flyboy, you did fine. Better than many of us. Most of what you're getting is partasian BS because you didn't back their favorite horse.


In the end, everyone is issued one vote (supposedly). Vote your mind. Compromise is a byproduct of political parties and people pigeon-holing themselves. Abstaining is not a waste, or throwing it away, it is part of the process.
 
Oh, you can bet I'll complain. I'll probably complain louder than you. And I'll have every right.

Didn't play the game? Sir, I was involved. I donated financially to my candidate. I went out and donated my time, and my effort, busting hump to gather signatures to get my candidate on the ballot. How dare you presume to call me indifferent. You're right, I didn't "play the game." That's probably because I don't play games on these matters. I am a man of strong conviction, and I refuse to compromise my principles.

Flyboy, you are my hero.

And to the person who offered to let us wear his Super Bowl Ring, if that's the ring that takes away my right to reproductive freedom, decides that two people who love one another cannot be married, strips me of nearly all of my rights of the accused and invades countries that pose no threat to the US based on trumped-up accusations, well, you can keep your trinket, thanks. :fire:
 
Destructo, there's a difference between saying a vote won't change the outcome and that a vote doesn't matter. Believe it or not, pollsters do look at the percentage of voters who abstain from a particular race. Flyboy's refusal to vote for Bush also decreased the margin of victory in his state, which will make the Republicans nervous. They will try to figure out what they can do to increase that margin in the future, which might result in a concession on one or several important policy points.

Pollsters and academics in the ivory tower may not care a lot about poll statistics, but they do care. Half the work of future campaigns is already done -- they know that Flyboy is politically active and will probably show up to vote in 2008. All they have to do is convince Flyboy to vote for their candidate rather than "wasting" his vote.

1. It pays to make the election as close as possible, because doing so increases the chance that the winning party will change parts of its platform in the future.
2. Pollsters and political theorists care about voting statistics, particularly about NOTA (none of the above) presidential votes.
 
Flyboy, you can name 6 candidates? That's something to improve in the future. There were at least 5 significant third parties ;) The only reason I knew who they were was because I watched the four-party debate with Badnarik, Brown, Cobb, and Peroutka. And then there's Nader, of course.

http://www.politics1.com/p2004-ballots.htm

particularly amusing:
Note #2: Socialist Workers Party nominee Roger Calero is a naturalized US citizen who is constitutionally ineligible to be President. His ballot status below also includes the stand-in slate headed by substitute SWP nominee James Harris in those states where Calero was legally barred from ballot access.
 
For those intellectual giants that advocate abstention, let’s take your position to the fullest degree of possibility. If everyone assumed your position, that non-voting is acceptable, then no candidate would have been elected. How effective is any process when there is no participation? Or better yet, let’s all hold hands and not have a firm commitment to anything of true importance.

While your sitting in your fog of confusion, playing with your johnson when you should be using your mind, consider the following. Others, far more committed than you, will willingly support Presidential Candidate Leonard Peltier, a felonious murderer (Leavenworth will be the new Camp David), and his V.P. candidate Janice Jordan that will "call for socialist democracy…,†and the “unconditional release of Leonard Peltier, Mumia Abu Jamal, Theresa Cruz, and H. Rap Brown.†Since Jordan has never met Peltier in person, but they have corresponded in writing over the years, we can be assured of a cohesive team.

Or maybe, if we were lucky, everyone’s contrary inaction could bring Calero/Hawkins team of the Socialist Workers Party! Little issues such as non-conformance to the presidential requirements should concern one who has no position, right? Since they are Communist political organizers, they prefer you in a fog. Or if a more fun sort of government meets your acquiescing palate, let’s hope that Charles Jay of the Personal Choice Party is succeeded by his V.P. running mate, Marilyn Chambers the porn star. “During the period in which she left porn (before her return to the industry), Chambers owned and operated a gun shop.†Well, at least she likes guns and they won’t require us to wear wedding rings and be morally responsible. But, oh the fun!

It is an interesting commentary that the Socialist and Communist parties seem to share similar, if not identical, terms and ideology in their respective bios. Well, that is good though. If you worry about work, when your lack of participation gets one of them elected, you needn’t worry anymore. They have the neatest work camps, which are designed for maximum efficiency (read "Coming Out of the Ice" by Victor Herman ).

So light up a dooby, pull your three women and various bastard children around you, and embrace the coming change.

Docbones


p.s. Tyme, thanks for the link. Very informative
 
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If everyone assumed your position, that that non-voting is acceptable, then no candidate would have been elected.
That's simply not true. I think non-voting is acceptable for someone who really doesn't like any of the candidates. I voted because Badnarik was on the ballot. If he hadn't been, I wouldn't have voted for any presidential candidate. There are lots of people who do like one of the candidates. As long as that's the case, there will never be zero votes.

docbones, that link is on the THR library page, and has been for quite a while. I encourage everyone to go to the library page and look through all the links. There's a lot of good stuff there.
 
I still cannot understand why someone who owns guns, and would prefer to keep them, wouldnt ENTHUSIASTICALLY vote for Bush. He IS the pro-gun candidate. I guess it may because I agree with most of his positions.

Browns Fan,

I am not a one issue voter. I think Bush is more or less OK on gun rights, despite the fact that he supported AWB renewal for political purposes.

However he has done many other things that have been in frank contradiction to the Bill of Rights. I think many gun owners overlook these things he has done. As long as gun owners don't see new gun laws passed, many think he is pro-freedom, while his record does not really indicate that.
 
Again we have the Republicrats and the Demopublicans trying to confuse the issue in regards to voting.

The only wasted vote is the one that is not excercised!! If you show up and vote the straight Demopublican/Republicrat ticket, vote for some third party, or refuse to vote on a particular issue/candidate you have excercised your vote and anyone who starts to rattle their chops over the relative value of that decision is only showing that they are just ticked that you didn't vote the way they wanted you to.

The reason we have so many varied and restrictive access rules to the ballot is that the Republicrats/Demopublicans are scared spitless that some third party might come out and challenge them and they have been doing this for over a hundred years.

So, come on all you Demopublicans/Republicrats are you still scared spitless of the citizens of this country or are you willing to open the ballot to other parties?
:scrutiny:
 
I still cannot understand why someone who owns guns, and would prefer to keep them, wouldnt ENTHUSIASTICALLY vote for Bush. He IS the pro-gun candidate. I guess it may because I agree with most of his positions.

Maybe it’s because he would ban “assault weapons†and close the gun-show “loophole.†Maybe it’s because “the pro-gun candidate†couldn’t even manage to properly arm airline pilots—AN ISSUE HE HAS COMPLETE AND ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER!

~G. Fink
 
Some of you guys are amazing. If you were totally opposed to murder, and the canidates were Jeffery Dahmer or Ted Kosinski, you would still post about how "your" canidate is better because he didn't eat his victims!

Good on you Flyboy. Glad to hear of a principled None-Of-The-Above vote.
 
Others, far more committed than you, will willingly support Presidential Candidate Leonard Peltier, a felonious murderer
...
Or maybe, if we were lucky, everyone’s contrary inaction could bring Calero/Hawkins team of the Socialist Workers Party!

Except that these guys weren't on the ballot either. That's what started this whole thing: not distaste for Bush/Kerry, but utter disgust at the lack of other options. If we could get Peltier and Calero on the ballot, we could get a whole lot more; more parties would be a good thing, and would increase participation. Or, better yet, no parties, just individuals. I think the best argument for such a system was made by President Washington in his Farewell Address:

I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but in those of the popular form it is seen in its greatest rankness and is truly their worst enemy....

It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; kindles the animosity of one part against another; foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passion. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

There is an opinion that parties in free countries are useful checks upon the administration of the government, and serve to keep alive the spirit of liberty. This within certain limits is probably true; and in governments of a monarchical cast patriotism may look with indulgence, if not with favor, upon the spirit of party. But in those of the popular character, in governments purely elective, it is a spirit not to be encouraged. From their natural tendency it is certain there will always be enough of that spirit for every salutary purpose; and there being constant danger of excess, the effort ought to be by force of public opinion to mitigate and assuage it. A fire not to be quenched, it demands a uniform vigilance to prevent its bursting into a flame, lest, instead of warming, it should consume.

While I agree that eliminating political parties would be nigh unto impossible in the current political climate, I do think that we should at least strive to include as many parties as possible. A new voting system might be in order as well; that's beyond the scope of this discussion, and I'm not sufficiently informed on the matter to render an opinion anyway. In short, it's above my pay grade.

Nonetheless, we do have a problem here, and silently condoning the system by voting for "the lesser evil," with a vote that counts just the same an an enthusiastic supporter's, is not going to help. I fully understand the importance of not letting perfect become the enemy of good. In my case, it wasn't an issue. Somebody on this board, when presented with the fact that we deny trade to Cuba for human rights reasons, but trade freely with China in spite of abuses perhaps even more grievous, commented that you have to fight the battles you can. Fighting this battle in Ohio may have been a Pyrrhic victory at best; fighting it in Oklahoma gives little chance to win, but no chance to lose. Doesn't that make it a battle worth fighting?
 
Flyboy, I got yer back...

I am an Oklahoma voter, and I did the exact same thing that Flyboy did. I "undervoted". One other thing...my voter card has a big fat "I" on it. I have been scolded by everyone from my parents to the "little old lady" election board types who all inform me that I can't vote in the primary if I don't choose a party. Well, I figure that if everyone that felt the way I did picked one of the two big parties as a matter of political expediency, then NOONE WOULD EVER KNOW based on registration lists that there was anything but donkeys and elephants out there. No need to court Independents, or Libertarians, or "Constitutionals" or Greens, or the Ice Cream Party, or whatever else might be out there, because they don't exist, right?

So there. I knew that Bush would win OK hands down. So I made sure I voted for Coburn, Bode, DePue, and any other local official that I could help out. Most of them won. Now all y'all back off my boy flyboy! :D
 
If he didn't like the two choices available, he did the right thing. We had six or seven choices for president in Michigan, some with party affiliations, some without. I assume that if third party choices were available, he would have voted for one of them, net result: neither Bush nor Kerry got his vote.
 
To not vote means that one does not have a set of core moral values that he embraces. Certainly he does not embrace the values upon which this nation was founded and made the greatest nation in the history of the world. Those were the Judeo/Christian ethic.

If one has no core values that are important enough to understand that to do nothing is to renege on one's responsibility, then that person deserves whatever befalls him as a result of his doing nothing.

A good citizen does that which is best for his nation. In this election there were significant differences in any area that one could name. The issues included the security of the nation from foreign terrorists, and how the nation should function properly. It included the environment in which we can raise our children and future generations. One cannot be very perceptive and fail to know those things. Evidently it escapes some.

The most important were the moral issues. If one cannot identify those issues and stand for what is right, then he is not a good citizen. He is a foolish person who does not deserve the liberty which we have.

Jerry
 
To not vote means that one does not have a set of core moral values that he embraces.

Close: to not vote means that the candidates presented do not match my set of core moral values closely enough that I'm willing to lend my mandate to their causes. I didn't just stay home; I went to the polls, gave careful consideration to the options have, and selected the option most compatible with my strongly- and deeply-held beliefs. I've said several times that my biggest complaint is the lack of options, and I've said that I would have voted, and proudly, had the State deigned to allow other parties (in my case, Libertarian/Badnarik) on the ballot.

Certainly he does not embrace the values upon which this nation was founded and made the greatest nation in the history of the world.

Ah, but I do, and most heartily. This great nation was founded upon the ideal of freedom and due process, not warrantless searches and unlimited detention without charges. "The right to bear arms," not "the right to keep guns that don't look too scary, and then only if you're in the military." The right to free speech, not "the 'free speech zone' is in this chain-link-and-barbed-wire cage half a mile from the convention site." The right to travel freely, not "papers, please." And the right to vote for whomever I like, not one of two candidates pre-selected for me by the State.

Go back and read that last sentence again. Candidates selected by the State. Remember I mentioned Russia earlier? Does this sound just a bit familiar. Even pre-invasion, Iraq had elections. Yup, that's right, you could vote for anybody on the ballot for President of Iraq. 'Course, there was only one name on the ballot, but you could vote!

Those were the Judeo/Christian ethic.

Not so much as you might think. The Founding Fathers, by and large, were Deists.

If one has no core values that are important enough to understand that to do nothing is to renege on one's responsibility...

This sounds remarkably accusatory; I'm sure you meant it hypothetically, of course, as attacking the speaker has no place in any logical, mature debate. Please be careful with your wording; I'm sure you don't want this to start sounding like DU.

A good citizen does that which is best for his nation.

And, as I've said, it was my carefully considered opinion that neither candidate was best for the nation. They are both seriously problematic.

On one hand, we had a candidate who allowed spending increase after spending increase, including some of the largest discretionary, non-military budget increases ever. In fact, on that man's watch, we saw four of the five largest spending increases in history. We had a candidate who publicly expressed support for restricting our gun rights. We had a candidate who supported, and aided in passing, a bill to restrict your freedom of speech with regards to elections. We had a candidate who supported, and aided in passing, a law that gave the government broad-reaching powers of surveillance, even providing for searches and siezures without warrant, and kept secret, denying even the most basic judicial review.

On the other hand, we had the Democrat. And, as a senator, he voted for every one of the bills I just mentioned, and held all of the same positions.

Tell me again how either one of them is "best for the nation," given the above? Tell me again how you reconcile either candidate's position with the Constitution. Neither one of them gets it; I've heard both of them speak about the rights the government gives, or the Constitution gives. They're both statists!

The most important were the moral issues. If one cannot identify those issues and stand for what is right, then he is not a good citizen.

Again, with the accusatory tone. But, again, I'm sure it was a slip of the tongue (er, fingers). What, exactly, are the "moral issues" of which you speak? As near as I can tell, the biggest moral issue is the morality of government trying to interfere with the rights endowed me by my Creator (among which are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness). Which one of the candidates was working to reduce government intervention in my life; which one was trying to reduce the government's immoral and unconscionable interference with my inalienable rights?

If one cannot identify those issues and stand for what is right, then he is not a good citizen. He is a foolish person who does not deserve the liberty which we have.

Y'know, I think that's the first thing you've said with which I agree.
 
Im an Oklahoma voter, and I had no issues voting. I have no desire to see seven or eight candidates, when a vote for any but the main two is a waste of ink..it just confuses the less informed voters, and makes for a more complicated process. I dont care how much some folks want, there will never be a viable candidate for the presidency that isnt from the GOP or DNC, and thats just fine with me.
 
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