I learned a thing or two this weekend especially with my equipment.

[flip180]

I took Louis Awerbuck's Stage-1 shotgun course. I showed up with this uber decked out 870 and was using a sig-tac vest for holding my shells. My shotgun was equiped with a three round extension along with an elaborate dual picatinnied clamp. After the first day, I went back to the hotel room and thought things though. My vest was really screwing me up on what pocket my shells were located in and how to get into that pocket without looking. Another thing was that I was the one of two shooters that were running three round extension. It was taking me a long time to get my gun topped off and, I was holding everybody up. That night I took off the extension and ran a standard capacity 870 with a 20 inch barrel with a standard carry sling and, I also dumped the vest and went to a dump pouch for bird shot and used my jean pockets for buck and slugs. Now, I could really concentrate on training instead of fumbeling with reloading. My reloading timed sped up considerably. On the third day the other guy with the three round extension on his 870 also took it off and went to a standard capacity setup. When it was all said and done, There were four of us out of eleven shooters that ran standard capacity mag tubes and we did just fine. The gun was lighter and handled better. The felt recoil was a little stiffer but the R3 recoil pad saved my bacon. My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training. What you think you needed may only screw you up. I was not the best shooter of the class nor was I the worst. We all had our strengths and weeknesses and there were times when we were all like *** looking at our guns in utter confusion. Here is a pic of the gun as it was the last two days of the class. The gun was also fitted with XS sights.


Flip.

 

[Hoppy590]

you mean its SKILL and not Gadgets that matter?! HA! i dont believe it. im gunna go take my SureFire onto my 1903pocket pistol just to spite you

 

[GTSteve03]

Did you do any practicing with your vest before you went to the class, so you would know where your shells were? I'm confused on how the mag extension made it slower to top off. I thought topping off meant shoot one, reload one, etc? If you were shooting until empty, even if it took longer to fully reload, you were still reloading less than the other guys with less capacity.

 

[flip180]

I must admit I really didn't practice much with the vest. After the first day, my intention was to streamline everything and run through the class with an essentially basic shotgun and see how it goes. Will I ever go back to an extension? Maybe. If so, it'll probably be a factory piece.

Flip.

 

[waterhouse]

It was taking me a long time to get my gun topped off and, I was holding everybody up.

My reloading timed sped up considerably.

Just to be clear . . . were you reloading "faster" because it took less shells to top off, or were you reloading faster because the gun was more nimble and easier to hold without the mag extension?

 

[flip180]

I think it was everything. The problem I had with the vest was that I had birdshot stuffed into three pockets on the left side. Everyone of those pockets opened a different way. The top pocket was an open top snap closure, the middle pocket was a zippered pocket and the bottom was a dual velcro'd flap. It was taking me a long time to try to figure out which pocket had rounds left in it by patting it down and how it opened by not looking at it. He was on our asses if we looked down while reloading our guns. The mag extension did make the gun more nose heavy and with the dificulty I had retrieving shells and the time it took to do so, it became a bitch to hold up. With the standard capacity mag, I had the gun ready sooner even if it was with three less rounds. With my dump pouch, the shells were right there were I needed them. By this time I already had the extension off of the gun. Would things have been fine leaving the extension on and only dumping the vest in favor of the pouch? Probably so. The rounds came out of the pouch much faster than they did the vest. Like I said. I'm not going to count extensions out but, it made sense to me to finish the class with the gun in it's more basic form and decided on what to do with it afterwards.

Flip.

 

[Scoupe]

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

My insight is this, spend less money on equipment and more on training.

A very good insight. Thanks for the report. Sounds like time well spent.

 

[GTSteve03]

With my dump pouch, the shells were right there were I needed them.

I have often thought of getting some kind of tac vest to hold spare shotgun shells, but after hearing how much quicker the dump pouch was for you, along with how popular they are to the pro shotgunners, it does make me think that perhaps simplest is best after all.

 

[flip180]

http://www.bdstacticalgear.com/pd_bds_tactical_ultimate.cfm

Here's what I was using. It will easily hold 100-125 rounds of 2-3/4in shells. You'd just better have a good belt. I never had more than fifty at a time. The funny thing is, I brought this pouch to act as a tool box. It was full of everything I would need to work on the SG. I'm glad I had it. It was the right thing at the right time.

Flip.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for posting this, Flip. A couple things...

"Spend less money on equipment and more on training". I've been saying this for decades. BA/UU/R has a LOT of experience behind it.

Dunno if the extension was a detriment or not. I do know that a standard capacity 870 in trained hands is an awesome weapon.

Finally, train in and with what you're going to fight with.

 

[flip180]

Thanks Dave,

I've looked into getting a Remington factory parkerized +3 extension kit. The main thing is, they seem to be only available to law enforcement. I bet there's a way around that though.

Flip.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Congratulations, Flip- I'd be willing to bet you learned more than 'a thing or two' too 8^).

lpl/nc

 

[flip180]

Lee,
I also learned that the 870 is really a complicated weapon to master as a fighting gun. Sure just about anyone can get one out of the closet every so often for a dove hunt and be fine. But when the dove start shooting back, it gets real interesting. That's the reason I streamlined me set up. I wanted to learn on the basic weapon without anything else to screw me up when I got "confused".

Flip.

 

[sm]

flip180,
Thank you for your brutally honest sharing with us all.
I am very pleased you attended, and had this training.

My take on all this is well known around here.

Steve

 

[BlackBearME]

Like others, thanks for the insight.

I think the problem is that you changed a whole bunch of variables at once (yes, too many science classes) It would seem the proper thing to do would be to change on thing at a time (dump the vest, then dump the extension, then add the pouch, etc.) and see what combination works best. Obviously, you were limited in your time/ammo at the class itself, but mixing/matching would seem to be the best way to find out what works best for you.

 

[Lawyerman]

Flip did very well and I hope had a good time. Welcome back any time. Oh, and I don't think the two gentlemen you and I shot at the end with the large holes through their craniums will be bothering anyone anytime soon!

It was interesting to note the gear progression of alot of the guys, most were shedding things.

I never felt undergunned even though the gun I started the course with had only a standard capacity tube. I had to switch to another gun with an extension though when the first "went down"....actually it wasn't a big deal but I had 3 attachment screws on my side saddle go MIA so I switched guns. The last day I had the first gun back as I scrounged up some appropriate screws. No big deal.

We saw no less than TWO Scattergun two shot extensions go down-and they charge 2x as much for them why? The ring that holds the sling swivel in place is press fit.....it can and does loosen under hard use. I will never own another one. The only extensions that I will use from here on out are either the Choates with their rolled tube and disc or the Remington factory which is built h3ll for stout. Flip, there are plenty of Remington extensions around, search on Gunbroker, AR15.com gear exchange etc.....

To me the ideal gun is an 18" barrel-it handles so much better than the 20", either a stock tube with swivel in the cap or a Remington two shot extension with barrel band swivel. Two point sling, follower made of metal with a large hole in the center for tube checks ( I have taken all my old Remington 1950's metal followers and stuck them in my machinists vise and warmed up the drill press- voila "tactical" followers), Sidesaddle. The sidesaddle is very handy, I use mine to store slugs only-I know exactly whats there, no guessing that way, works good.

The Speedfeed short stockset solves alot of problems. It is tough, the right length for most shooters and comes with a short handguard. We had several guys with "sporter" type foreends that had problems loading/unloading with the long foreend. They are also "cheap"- Brownells dealers cost is $60....no gunsmith is going to cut down your old wood stock and install a decent recoil pad for less than that- bonus, sell the wood unit and decrease your cost even further.

Sights... well, the bead is good, rifle sights are good. Ghost rings are good....if they stay attached and are easily adjusted.

Current state of ammo....STINKS.

We had many extraction issues-one of my guns included. The bargain brands of birdshot often have out of spec rims, not a big deal if your gun is very clean and you don't shoot it hot....big deal if it's been shot quite a bit and gets warm. I had to do immediate stoppage clearance twice for this reason. I do believe that I may get my chamber polished as well.....need to really scope it first though. Reduced recoil slugs do not always fly straight. We had one guy who was shooting at a steel plate miss twice in exactly the same place at 50 yards. He had been dead on at 25 but was now 10" high and right....we slapped in a Remington slugger standard velocity and he drilled the plate dead center- where the Remington reduced was printing at 25. Same experience with at least one deputy who was in the class though he was shooting Winchester Reduced slugs......Me, my guns like the Rem. Reduced well enough but I think I'm going to full power from now on. Flips Brenneke KO's did well across the board. In Buckshot, if you like tight patterns, Hornady TAP will get it done EVERY time.

Just a few random thoughts.

 

[Striker]

Flip & Lawyerman,

Just curious, besides 870s what other guns were used in the class?

 

[flip180]

It was all 870's except for one guy that switched to a Mosberg on the second day. Jeff, I had a great time. I had been bombarded with a but load of info and seemed more confused as ever. I've since sorted it out and really need to get to the range to put it all together.

Flip.

 

[Lawyerman]

Yea, even Louis commented that it was odd to have an all 870 class-usually there is one guy running a Benelli or a Winchester 1300...... The deputy that switched over to his personal M500 after the first day did fine, no issues that I saw with the gun.

Flip, what are you confused about? Your setup was running great after you "cleaned up" your gun and went to the dump bag. That vest was just not right-too many pockets-not designed for shotshells, designed as a cover garmet for pistols and to hold a couple of rifle mags..... I think you probably just need to go and work the drills yourself now. All the class will do is expose you to the techniques....ya gotta put your own time in to really make them second nature.

I have never seen a better diagnostician than Louis. If you did what he told you...you started hitting, period. I had an issue with running the bolt all the time. In the past I had done some side loading so I would leave it open.....no more sideloading for me.....it all goes in the mag tube, period! That is my personal "to work on" issue.

 

[flip180]

Your right Jeff,

It was really a matter of trying to get a sequence down. When I had it, I had it. But, there were times when I would trip up on even the simplest things. It's amazing how confusing an 870 could get when things got a little pressured. As I sat back and watched, I saw that we all had times when our hands weren't communicating with our brains. These things take practice. Three days is not enough time to get it down pat. It's enough time to get the info out but I need to get out and practice.

Flip

 

[Bix]

Same Experience

After my first Awerbuck class last summer: simplify and systematize.

Develop a simple system for keeping the gun fed: I always feed through the loading port. Now, when I shoot trap, I close the action, load a shell into the magazine, run the action, call for a bird, and mount the gun / snap off the safety. My buddies roll their eyes.

Develop a simple system for keeping track of your ammo. In class, I ran a mix of slugs and buck on the gun, birsdhot in a dump pouch, and additional buck in carriers on the belt. I kept track of everything, because it's what I use in matches, but it was still too 'artificial'. I'm now looking for a small 'go bag' that I can store next to the gun that will keep a couple handfulls of buck and slugs organized and have room for a little blow out kit.

I used a 2 round extension on an 18" barrel that worked fine for the class. I'd run a standard-capacity gun in a previous shotgun class and preferred the handling - but I like extension because the gun is stored loaded and I like some room in the tube. Ideally, I think I'd like to find a one-round entension NOT made by Wilson.....

One of my biggest learning points was seeing a downside to the supertight patterns the Hornady TAP rounds throw out of my gun. We ran some drill where the students were frantically moving, shooting and cramming shells into a perpetually empty gun with Louis screaming in their ear. The targets were hanging steel plates at maybe 10 yards. When it was my turn, I started blazing away - but the steel was not ringing. It eventually occurred to me that I was shooting on the move, out of position, and as fast as I could - and my 1-2" patterns were whizzing by the plates. When I finally slowed down, confirmed my mount against my sights, and paid a bit of attention to my trigger, I started getting solid hits. This taught me a couple things: (a) the mechanics that got me acceptable hits with birdshot could not be relied on to get me hits with the TAP loads, and (b) guys shooting bigger-patterning buck loads could run the plates quicker than me. I probably won't be changing ammo any time soon, but food for thought.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Kudos to all of Louis' students for sharing their experiences in class. It is a landmark experience, I can assure anyone who has considered taking the class that it will be the best time/money they ever spent with a shotgun in hand.

For the benefit of those who have not seen them, here are a couple more AARs (after action reports) on Louis' class. First is that of my late e-acquintance Mark Penman, whose review eventually prompted my own appearance at Durham Pistol and Rifle Club when Louis taught his intro shotgun class there a year or so ago. You can find it at http://www.jtk3.com/laissezfirearm/shotgun.htm .

And my own AAR, posted here after my head had cleared a bit- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292 .

Training like this gives you something that can never be taken from you, it is my ardent wish that every member here avail themselves of training at the hands of a nationally ranked instructor at some point in their shooting career. I cannot describe how much good it does you.

lpl/nc

 

[Lawyerman]

I will agree on the super tight patterns. I do not understand why guys will spend all the money on a Vang Comp barrel....the whole friggen point of a shotgun is to have a PATTERN....If I wanted a pump action 4 shot rifle I would get a Remington 760! Or better yet, an AR or AK-no pumping and 30 rounds between reloads!

In a riot gun....I want a RIOT GUN- within reason, nice even patterns out to 25 yards, patterns- not groups! The TAP though is very well made, high quality ammo. It works.

The only reason I would get a Vang Comp barrel these days is because if you like a tighter pattern or even a decent pattern, you may not always be able to get high quality buckshot like Speer, Federal or Tap. The "crud" that you can find may need all the help it can get to stay in a decent pattern. For that reason it might be worth having-as a kind of "doomsday" equalizer.

I ran birdshot in a pouch, slugs on the sidesaddle and buck in the slash pocket of my BDU's. We didn't have anyone hit a close plate with a slug in the class, which was very good! My slugs are all green and the buck is all red except for some Fiocchi that is white. I plan on keeping slugs only in my sidesaddles-brass up. That way I know exactly what's there, no guessing in the dark-"Is that the middle round or the second to middle?" Buck I keep in a dump bag on a belt with a snap closure and loaded in the gun, simple enough.

You don't know how much you don't know until you have someone show you! Training is important.

 

[flip180]

"We didn't have anyone hit a close plate with a slug in the class"

Thank God! After seeing what the slugs did to that 35 pound plate at 75 yards or so, I'd hate to be standing in front of one of those smaller plates when someone sends a slug into it instead of birdshot or buckshot.

Flip

 

[Gordon]

I've had quite a few Awerbuck classes these last 6 years. I started with a 1100 'Racegun' with the earliest Aimpoint and a Surefire forend. Had a back up 1100 Deer gun.I learned alot! Next time it was a couple of 870s with surefire foreends and MMC ghost sights with choate PG stocks that were shoulder chisels and still too long and the front sigt blew off! Next time the 870s had single point slings (which I LOVE) honed and polished innards and Houge short stock on one and a solid 13" speedfeed on the back up. The Houge at 12" was 1/2" or so too short but very soft but knocked my face and the speed feed was a shoulder chisel (not that I complained!). I always used Rem factory 2 round extensions with 0 problems.Next time the Houge was 12 3/4"(just right) the barrel 18" IC with Factory rifle sights and Tritium blades and LED Turbo head conversions on the Surefire forends. And I got a "very nice reload Gordon" from Louis from the couple year old custom dump pouch with the extra pistol mag holder built in. Trouble was, I carried 62 shells in the pouch plus 7 in gun and 5 in side saddle and the "180" drill the combined ITTS/Awerbuck class had you engage the 6 poppers being pulled by 3 people behind you at random until you expended all your ammo!!! Whew, 74 shots!! But I killed them all!
Then I showed up to class with a 'fighting' A-5 and a new fangled Benelli super 90 I had massaged. The A-5 was absolute heaven till it failed after 150 rounds or so to go into battery , which astonished Louis and me. The Benelli cut my hands to shreds the next 2 days, and I learned NOT to like it's manual of arms.
Then feeling cocky I showed up with a 10 Gauge AYA coach gun with a 6 cell maglight duck taped under the barrel. meant to be a joke, but the Boer has no sense of normal humor so I shot the 870 A few times as it was not primarily a SG course.
Louis is my Guru (don't tell him that!) since the blessed Col. (and HIS Guru) passed on. I'll be taking his 'marksmanship problem solver' next month. I try to study under him or Scott Reitz twice a year.