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I need help identifying this. Is it the world's first assault rifle?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by five.five-six, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. five.five-six

    five.five-six Member

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    When I first looked at it, I thought it was a modern reproduction of something, I am not even sure what. but after looking at the gold inlays and details I am starting to think that it is a lot older than I first thought.

    Here are some photos, hopefully someone can tell me what it is.

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  2. gunsablazin

    gunsablazin Member

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    Is it an AR-1 ? :p
     
  3. PGT

    PGT Member

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    I think it was a prototype developed by that great warrior, Chingatchgook. Here's a pic with his previous iteration with the grip on the opposite side:

    15s8ozp.jpg
     
  4. GCBurner

    GCBurner Member

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    Looks like a Liege, Belgium proof, the "portee garantie" means the range is guaranteed, but I don't know what range it means. Is it a shotgun? I don't see any rifle sights, but the hooked buttplate looks like it would go on a target rifle. Or maybe a shotgun custom made for someone with only one arm?
     
  5. five.five-six

    five.five-six Member

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    I will have to measure the bore but IIRC it's in the range of 54 cal, probably not a shotgun. I think there was a rear sight but it's gone missing, probably before I was born.
     
  6. Curator

    Curator Member

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    Definitely Belgian, maybe original 1860-ish. The pistol-grip is from that time period. There were a lot of innovators trying new designs at that time. Check the barrel and lock for maker's marks or other proof marks. More pics will help in identification.
     
  7. robhof

    robhof Member

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    Definitely a unique piece, I've been to many gun museums and never seen anything like that. I've seen some antique competition rifles that had pretty exotic stocks, closely resembling modern olympic style stocks. Thanks for sharing that photo and I hope someone can get you some specifics, I'd love to know the history of it.
     
  8. jhvaughan2

    jhvaughan2 Member

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    lock up the kids! It has a pistol grip!
     
  9. pitw

    pitw Member

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    Wish I could help. That is most impressive.
     
  10. IROCZ

    IROCZ Member

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    I think that one is on the "Banned List".....
     
  11. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    ..

    very unique.

    And to a collector, probably worth a lot.


    Me think its very beautiful.
     
  12. desidog

    desidog Member

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    Definitely looks like an amputee's custom gun, given the pistol grip, short foregrip / butt-heavy balance, and the hooked butt plate.
     
  13. GCBurner

    GCBurner Member

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    That was my first thought. In the movie Brotherhood Of The Wolf, a one-armed nobleman uses something similar, only it's a flintlock.
     
  14. Patocazador

    Patocazador Member

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    The world's first "Bull Pup" not the first assault rifle.

    Neat.
     
  15. kBob

    kBob Member

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    pato,

    That is not a bull pup as the action is at or forward of the pistol grip.

    I think it may have been a rifle specifically for shooting from the standing position much like breech loading Shutzen rifles. Long barrel to provide long sight distance, hook to take some of the wright of the gun and hold the rifle in the correct spot, pistol grip to prevent side pressures on the stock, short fore stock to keep forward weight down and provide just enough stock to use an elbow on "hip" off hand hold.

    Ich bein ein "Cracker".....just so folks know it takes a Floridian to correct a Floridian.
     
  16. MCgunner

    MCgunner Member

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    Pistol grips are for pistols. :rolleyes: Odd, I must admit, a tacticool front loader. I doubt it would sell to the kids now days, no high cap mags for it.
     
  17. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    Jefferson Herb and I had a friend with a withered, undersized left arm from childhood polio. It wasn't quite useless, it could hold something like a ramrod, but wasn't strong enough to do anything with, and it had limited movement.He favored guns like that,and had quite a few short barreled, butt heavy muzzle loaders, including a swivel barrel over and under .45 carbine.
     
  18. five.five-six

    five.five-six Member

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    I sholdered it today one handed and the front sight and where the rear site would be lined right up with my eye automatically. Very natural, very balanced, almost what the snipers hide guys call NPA.

    The bore is grooved but not rifled and measures some where from 60-65 caliber.

    I could find no other proofs on the gun, what pictures would you like to see?
     
  19. SDC

    SDC Member

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    Definitely Belgian, and the "Fortee Garantie" just means "Strength Guaranteed"; are there any other marks at all, on the lockplate, or the other side? The ELG proof without the crown over it shows it was built before 1898, so it`s definitely an antique.
     
  20. Busyhands94

    Busyhands94 Member

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    Hey now! I'm 19, I'd buy it if it were for a good price! :D
     
  21. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Never seen the like, but it does appear to be a genuine antique piece. Please take care of it! You could be holding something quite important there. I know of no earlier stocks with that design, and by the look of it someone selected a tree with the right shape. You should send some photos to the NRA's museum.
     
  22. five.five-six

    five.five-six Member

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    It would be kinda neet if it turned out to be historicly significant, of course then I would have to quash my plans to cut it down and put a synthetic stock on it, drill/tap the barrel and install a red dot.
     
  23. robhof

    robhof Member

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    robhof

    AIEHHHHHHH!!!!!!Don't even joke about that. Had a friend in high school that had an original Kentucky/Pennsylvania rifle from the 1700's in very good condition, his father wanted to shoot it, but felt the barrel was too long, so he had it cut down, even then I knew it was a sin...:cuss::banghead::banghead::fire:
     
  24. five.five-six

    five.five-six Member

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    Forgive the lousy photo, no tripod and poor light, but I pushed the apature and shutter speed so you can get an idea of what the rifleing looks like. on the right is the head of the ramrod

    [​IMG]
     
  25. gunner69

    gunner69 Member

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    I too, will go with Belguim. Nice piece for the collection or a museum.
     
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