I Think The .325 WSM Deserves A Second Look

[Llama Bob]

No doubt the .325 WSM was the bastard child of the WSM line. Everyone was expecting a .338 WSM and instead got an 8mm WSM with a funny name given that nothing about the cartridge was .325 in size - bullet diameter is .323, same as the JS M98 and the 8mm Remington Mag. Cynics (including several in print) accused Winchester of trying to dupe gullible gun buyers into thinking it was "almost" a .338.

That was 13 years ago.

Since then, of the 4 WSM cartridges the .270 and .300 have cemented themselves as popular. The 7mm WSM has been dropped despite arguably being the most useful of the small bore WSMs when hand loaded but lives on with a population of enthusiasts. And the 325 continues to be cataloged, neither a raging success nor dropped. That suggests it outsold the 7mm WSM, shocking given that no 8mm caliber in new production rifles previously ever sold worth beans in the US.

I think the answer lies with the field having essentially been swept of medium bore magnums suitable for use in a light rifle. The .350 Remington Mag is thoroughly dead. The .376 Steyr never really did anything. The .338 RCM came and went with almost no one noticing outside Alaska. The short Lazerroni catridges even many gun nuts have never actually seen. All that's left on the field is the .338 WM, which comes in rifles the better part of a pound heavier than the .325, and still manages to have notably worse recoil at the same bullet weights.

And the Winchester engineers really were right about the 325. It does match the .338WM factory performance despite spotting the typical 338 two inches of barrel. 2000s at 2900+, 220s at 2800+ and 250s at 2700+ with temp insensitive powers (Retumbo and RL-23 for the heavies). Since the introduction Woodleigh has made some reasonably slick heavy bullets that close the BC gap to .308 caliber fairly effectively too. These 400-500 yard elk shots reasonable. So it's not an "almost" .338 - it's got the same power and reach as a .338, but with higher-SD slightly smaller bore projectiles.

Results in the field have been consistently good with the Partitions, TSXs, Weldcores, A-frames, and Accubonds.

So strangely Winchester's oddball has found itself the most powerful round readily available in a light, short action rifle. For a brown bear, bison, moose, or even elk hunts where a lot of walking is involved they seem to have a winner, albeit a winner of interest only to a small number of hunters. I think a light 325 may also be the best possible bear defense rifle when loaded with the 250gr Weldcore.

 

[flashhole]

Interesting post and your analysis makes sense. Thanks for sharing.

 

[adcoch1]

I agree that the 325 wsm should be a lot more popular, I personally see the rifle calibers above 30 cal as the venue of heavier constructed bullets and even at 8mm the difference in bullet construction is a huge factor over most 30 cal options for heavy game. And the wsm performance from a short barrel can't be argued as insufficient by anyone with any real hunting experience. I just wish the 350 rem mag was still around too.. I love mid bore cartridges...

 

[22250Rem]

Good points and very valid, IMHO.......... I think that it's competing in a limited market against some other well established cartridges. There's just not that many hunters that require something like that in that performance range, hence, it may either become a "niche" cartridge or eventually fade into obscurity. There have been lots of good cartridges that have never caught on the way they should have.

 

[flintlocke]

I strongly agree with you fellows, but the industry is driven by sales, and a lot of otherwise fine cartridges fall by the wayside. In spite of a healthy following of the 8mm bore in Europe, it just never won many hearts and minds over here. I have used the 8 x 57 IS and the 8mm-06 for forty years plus, with never a sliver of regret. Not because they were notably better than the grand old '06 on medium game, it's because the stocks fit me better. Anecdotal experience, which ain't much I admit, makes me confidant in the 8mm-06 when hunting elk. Enough to leave a perfectly good .35 Whelen in the safe. The 8mm-06 flies a little slower than the .325, so take it for what it's worth, but I get perfectly good results on game with light for caliber bullets, such as the 175 Sierra Pro Hunter and the old 185 Rem Cor-Lokt. And, good enough accuracy to clang steel out to 500 yards. I can only imagine the .325 would do it just a little better.

 

[jmr40]

You're comparing the 325 to the wrong cartridge. Compared to the 300 WSM the 325 shoots the same bullet weights only about 50 fps faster. It shoots the same bullet weights to the same speed as 300 WM. With a little more recoil than 300 WSM and about the same as 300 WM. With a 200 gr bullet in any of the 3 you get very similar numbers out to about 100 yards, then the 30's take over and they penetrate better at any range.

And if you compare real world numbers of 30-06 to 338-06, 308 to 338 Fed, and 300 WM to 338 WM you'll find that the 30's beat the 338's for all the same reasons.

It's not that the 325 or any other 8mm won't kill stuff. The 325, or any of the 300's will shoot flat enough and hit hard enough to take elk out past 500. They just don't offer a single advantage. I went through a stage where I was into and bought some oddball stuff to hunt with and have no problem with others who choose to do the same. But being different is the only reason to choose one. Once I figured out that my 308 would kill all the same animals a 338 WM, 300 WM or 325 WSM would kill I sold all of my bigger stuff. Makes life much simpler. Simple is good.

I personally see the rifle calibers above 30 cal as the venue of heavier constructed bullets and even at 8mm the difference in bullet construction is a huge factor over most 30 cal options for heavy game.

Not true at all. Any caliber bullet of the same brand and type is of the same construction. I realize this is hard for some to wrap their minds around but a 6.5mm/140, a 7mm/160, a .308/180, a 8mm/200 and a 338/225 will all give almost exactly the same penetration on game if they are the same brand and type of bullet.

Winchester's oddball has found itself the most powerful round readily available in a light, short action rifle.

Unfortunately Winchester has never offered any of the WSM's in a light, compact rifle and while they list it, try buying one. It isn't readily available. They are all roughly the same size and weight as their standard rifles. You'll save 2-3 oz, but that isn't much. Kimber is the only manufacturer who made a lightweight rifle chambered in the WSM's. And in rifles that light magnum recoil is stiff. And I don't think Kimber ever made a 325.

 

[Riomouse911]

All of the modern SM cartridges are really efficient and work very well, but the popularity is so variable it seems that all of them other than the .300 WSM are pretty rare indeed on the shelves at my local gun stores.

CDNN was practically giving away .325 WSM rifles over the last two years...I'll guess that the rock bottom prices were testament to that calibers' lack of popularity.

No doubt it'll hammer big game, but finding rounds for it is about impossible.

Stay safe!

 

[Llama Bob]

I don't think it's a good choice for a factory ammo buyer, but then few things are.

 

[Llama Bob]

Unfortunately Winchester has never offered any of the WSM's in a light, compact rifle and while they list it, try buying one. It isn't readily available. They are all roughly the same size and weight as their standard rifles. You'll save 2-3 oz, but that isn't much. Kimber is the only manufacturer who made a lightweight rifle chambered in the WSM's. And in rifles that light magnum recoil is stiff. And I don't think Kimber ever made a 325.

Winchester makes the Featherwieght, Sporter, and Extreme Weather. I would consider the featherweight and EW fairly light/handy rifles at 7 lbs even with a 24" barrel. All three are readily available from Gunbroker, Wholesale Hunter, and probably other places. Kimber has made 325s Classics although I don't think there's been a particularly recent run. You can find them easy enough though.

 

[Llama Bob]

As far as .30 caliber comparisons, the question is whether the 220gr and 250gr offerings do things the .30s won't?

My inclination is to say yes - a 250gr Weldcore seems like a better bear stopping load than anything I could put in a .300 WSM. Plenty of sectional density, and a little bit more frontal area.

 

[Goosey]

I compared it to the .300 a while back and it didn't look too good on paper. The bore is only a smidge larger, scaling a bullet from .308" to .323" increases the mass by just 15%. For comparison, scaling one from .284" to .308" would make it 28% heavier. Like jmr40 said it seemed to be +50 fps with the same weight, but BCs and bullet selections are much lower. Didn't know Woodleigh made a 250 grain 8mm, but not sure what it would offer in real terms over their 220 grain .30, or if I'd want to use a round-nose bullet in a WSM, anyways. It might have some small advantage for particular purposes but I wouldn't recommend it to someone.

But if I was choosing between a 300 or a 325 for myself, I'd rather have the 325... because it's cooler.

 

[troy fairweather]

i love my 7wsm. we had a 325 to and i liked it well i like 8mms, but dad traded it off one day.

 

[troy fairweather]

I compared it to the .300 a while back and it didn't look too good on paper. The bore is only a smidge larger, scaling a bullet from .308" to .323" increases the mass by just 15%. For comparison, scaling one from .284" to .308" would make it 28% heavier. Like jmr40 said it seemed to be +50 fps with the same weight, but BCs and bullet selections are much lower. Didn't know Woodleigh made a 250 grain 8mm, but not sure what it would offer in real terms over their 220 grain .30, or if I'd want to use a round-nose bullet in a WSM, anyways. It might have some small advantage for particular purposes but I wouldn't recommend it to someone.

But if I was choosing between a 300 or a 325 for myself, I'd rather have the 325... because it's cooler.

hawk bullets makes a 300 grain 8mm

 

[Goosey]

hawk bullets makes a 300 grain 8mm

I see a 300 gr .333" on their site, but .323" tops out at 280 gr (SD = .383). And they have a 250 gr .308" (SD = .376) as well.

But I've seen a test of the Barnes Original 250 gr .308" where it was out-penetrated by multiple 220, 200, and 180 grain bullets. So weight and SD is impressive but I don't know if an 8mm 250 gr Woodleigh or that 280 gr Hawk would be out-penetrated by a 200 grain .308 TSX or A-Frame.

 

[Llama Bob]

I see a 300 gr .333" on their site, but .323" tops out at 280 gr (SD = .383). And they have a 250 gr .308" (SD = .376) as well.

But I've seen a test of the Barnes Original 250 gr .308" where it was out-penetrated by multiple 220, 200, and 180 grain bullets.

The Barnes Original is not very good for penetration - very soft, and very little holding the core to the jacket.

The Hawks are bonded, and you can choose your jacket thickness. The .035" jacket on the 250gr is pretty stiff. It's interesting they put the .030" jacket on the 280, but they're probably expecting a low impact velocity.

 

[magnatecman]

I have been thinking a 325 is just what I need for a while now. My style of hunting mule deer is spot and stalk and I like to hunt the thick P/J where shots are pretty close. Elk hunting in the same scenario. But then you have times where the target of opportunity is across a canyon and 500 yards off. I was leaning towards a 358 win which would be fine inside 300 yards but I think I’d be handicapped with that limitation. I also do a lot of hiking, and in P/J you are always doing the limbo under the tree branches, with a shoulder slung rifle that’s where a shorter barrel and light rifle would be perfect.
I just can’t decide if the 325 gives me enough over the 300 to be worth while. I reload so factory ammo isn’t even a consideration of mine.

 

[Gordon]

If only it was in 9.3 WSM I would own one !

 

[Llama Bob]

That looks like it would be very doable. Efficiency wouldn't be very good since there wouldn't be much shoulder, but that's true of all larger bore cartridges.

 

[Elkins45]

Why not a 358 Winchester? Short action and a 35 caliber bullet? I think that would put a hurt on a bear. And forming brass from 308 is cheap.

 

[Nature Boy]

Why not a 358 Winchester? Short action and a 35 caliber bullet? I think that would put a hurt on a bear. And forming brass from 308 is cheap.

I happen to be loading some of those right now.

My guess is you can’t push a 225g .358 win fast enough to equal the energy you can get from a .325 WSM

 

[Elkins45]

I happen to be loading some of those right now.

My guess is you can’t push a 225g .358 win fast enough to equal the energy you can get from a .325 WSM

That’s probably true. A 250 maxes out somewhere around 2200fps I believe. Still, that’s probably enough KE to put the smack down on a bear. And you don’t need exotic and expensive brass.

I’ve never found the difference between a short and standard action all that significant, so perhaps 35 Whelen would be another alternative. 06 cases are still easy to find.

 

[phonesysphonesys]

I have a Winchester feather weight in 325 WSM. I load 200 grain Accubonds and 200 grain Barnes. It is devastating on deer. I have killed 3 elk with it. It is lighter and easier to carry than my .300 WM. I think it is a great rifle and caliber.

 

[Llama Bob]

Why not a 358 Winchester? Short action and a 35 caliber bullet? I think that would put a hurt on a bear. And forming brass from 308 is cheap.

I don't have any particular thoughts on the .358 Win, but they are fairly different cartridges. The magnum has almost 25 grains of additional case capacity.

I think if you were sure all shots would be close there's a lot to recommend the .358 (and .35 Whelen) but at 400+ yards it wouldn't be my first choice by any means. The 325 seems to be nice in that it offers a crossover between the long-range western rifles and the bear rifles even to some degree with the same bullet. The 220 A-Frame would seem suitable for a bear at bad breath distance and an elk at 400y.

The cost to get that is recoil, but by most accounts the .325 recoil is surprisingly tame for what it is.

 

[Llama Bob]

My guess is you can’t push a 225g .358 win fast enough to equal the energy you can get from a .325 WSM

That's certainly true - with a 25gr or so difference in case capacity, the 325 will have about 25% more velocity with any given bullet weight (obviously depending on powder, bullet length, etc.) not to mention higher BCs for the same weight.

The question with the .358 is whether you're willing to live with slow. Depending on the bullet slow is OK but not at long range.

 

[redneck2]

So, why not just get a .338 Win Mag? It’s been around maybe 60-70 years.